Cookbook #1 (Sally, Immortal)

[Fish Man]

@krikav

I had a vague plan in my head when i finished the SH and TGW. First of all i wanted stonehenge for the culture in the city itself so i would get a border pop for the forests. So i could chop TGW with these forests. With the GW i do not need to worry anymore abotu the barbs too, which is kind of nice, it is convenient. I agree that failgold would maybe have been the better play, but it has been ages in my deity games since i got SH and TGW. can not remember the last time actually. Also a monument for free is nice, ofc you could just whip it , but if you already have one, you can settle maybe a bit like with the creative trait with food in the seond ring instead of first ring. Could allow better city placement.

So i just felt like grabbing them, they are nice wonders. Main reason for finishing them both are the GPP. This is only immortal difficulty and i think we can try out some fun strategies who would probably not work (or barely) on deity.

Getting early Great Person for settling or bulbing together with Rep opens up a lot of possibilities. We could fund or own religion(maybe Confucianism, Chrisitanity, taoism, maybe even judaism) if we choose to. Then get a second Great Prophet ( with help of madrassa) and build the shrine, convert Shaka and Qin to our religion. Usually there is no great benefit in getting a own religion but in this game i doubt shaka or qin will found one, so we could get these 2 jokers to friendly, get happyness and maybe a lot of gold with holy city shrine. It also opens up the possibility for a lot of . Maybe some people want to play and achieve a cultural victory. Would be possible.

So that is the main reason, i dont think i need the failgold to outtech immortal A.I. . I rather want to play some fun strategies and finally make use of a own religion again. Maybe even building the AP myself and win AP victory. Cheesy i know but kind of fun.

Barbs are a nonissue, at least from what I've seen of the saves so far. Shaka and Qin seem to do a pretty good job cooperating with each other in spawnbusting, and in all of the games posted here not a single barb has entered borders, IIRC.

Free monument is mostly irrelevant when at most 2 cities need it (fish city and other fish city up north that also grabs the gems).

Prophet bulbing is useless now that they've severely nerfed the path and you can't just GPbulb CS by skipping masonry (you used to be able to do that pre-BtS...ah, those were the days). And if we got a great spy...we could pull a page from @Kaitzilla 's book and try to get an espionage economy running but...like you said...imm AIs tech too slow. Overall, no offense, but I think wonderspamming was mostly a waste of hammers here.

You do make a good point in religion though. Sooner or later Shaka's gonna start redfising, and if we get a religion and get him to pleased we can at least safetybeg, whereas if we're not...well let's just say I think @Lain 's save might be in a teensy bit of trouble.

 

[Swordnboard]

Olafeson's wonders are one of the most exciting possibilities out of this turnset, in my opinion (GPP, monuments, barbarian protection are all good given the very low construction costs, I for one actually think they greatly outweigh the failgold). These two wonders can be ~800 unmultiplied GPP over the course of this game, which is really good regardless of the type of the GPs. Looking at my own save, I'm actually slightly scared that a barb axe will show up and I won't be able to do anything without metals or archery, so the GW certainly doesn't seem useless. FWIW, Both were built before T50 on my save, but even with slower dates I wouldn't have been in position to capitalize due to settling the stone later. All in all, I feel that wonderspamming is often bad for newer players because it crowds out workers and settlers when you need them, but Olafeson really managed to build them "at his own pace" and I think it will turn out great. Curious what the rest of the crowd thinks on that one.

@krikav my Kufah placement is solid if unexciting, working cottages is a priority that Kufah helps accomplish. Without stonehenge or convenient forests, getting fish city up and running is a bit of a chore, and the end result of that city is pretty good but I didn't find it worth bending over backwards for. If I had a do-over, I would still settle it 7th but leave a forest to chop a monument.
I appreciate that you worked to continue the lean, expansive playstyle, but this map probably needs more of a sharp pivot around T50 or so. Good land is running thin, so the expansion train eventually has to stop in favor of population and cottages (maybe the Mids too). Of course, with really good land, closer opponents and/or HOF situations, you can really just continue expanding the whole game and never have to make the pivot.

 

[Major Tom]

@Olafeson save is my favorite in category most interesting save so hope it will advance. Another use of all the GP could be to virtually have Golden Age rest of the game. Also the wonders keep cultural victory open.

Can't believe some is saying it is a waste of hammers without outlining gains and losses.

I suppose this cookbook series is a about having a casual, but solid game keeping all options open. Or is it about mimicking HoF games?

 

[Fish Man]

Olafeson's wonders are one of the most exciting possibilities out of this turnset, in my opinion (GPP, monuments, barbarian protection are all good given the very low construction costs, I for one actually think they greatly outweigh the failgold). These two wonders can be ~800 unmultiplied GPP over the course of this game, which is really good regardless of the type of the GPs. Looking at my own save, I'm actually slightly scared that a barb axe will show up and I won't be able to do anything without metals or archery, so the GW certainly doesn't seem useless. FWIW, Both were built before T50 on my save, but even with slower dates I wouldn't have been in position to capitalize due to settling the stone later. All in all, I feel that wonderspamming is often bad for newer players because it crowds out workers and settlers when you need them, but Olafeson really managed to build them "at his own pace" and I think it will turn out great. Curious what the rest of the crowd thinks on that one.

@krikav my Kufah placement is solid if unexciting, working cottages is a priority that Kufah helps accomplish. Without stonehenge or convenient forests, getting fish city up and running is a bit of a chore, and the end result of that city is pretty good but I didn't find it worth bending over backwards for. If I had a do-over, I would still settle it 7th but leave a forest to chop a monument.
I appreciate that you worked to continue the lean, expansive playstyle, but this map probably needs more of a sharp pivot around T50 or so. Good land is running thin, so the expansion train eventually has to stop in favor of population and cottages (maybe the Mids too). Of course, with really good land, closer opponents and/or HOF situations, you can really just continue expanding the whole game and never have to make the pivot.

@Olafeson save is my favorite in category most interesting save so hope it will advance. Another use of all the GP could be to virtually have Golden Age rest of the game. Also the wonders keep cultural victory open.

Can't believe some is saying it is a waste of hammers without outlining gains and losses.

I suppose this cookbook series is a about having a casual, but solid game keeping all options open. Or is it about mimicking HoF games?

If I could vote I would actually vote for @Olafeson 's save because while IMO not optimal, it opens up new opportunities instead of the established win-ASAP cuirstomp meta that I don't want the top 3 saves to be just slight variations of.

That being said - I stand by my statement of wonders being more of a detriment than a gain if we're talking about optimized play. You have to look at it from an opportunity cost standpoint. What could those 160 or so hammers have gone into? And the answer is - at least a settler and a worker. And as everyone especially said in the first round of voting already, rapid expansion is the key to snowballing. Here I think an extra city and worker would be much more of a both short-term and long-term economic gain. Qin and Shaka are no pushovers, even on imm, and we've got to claim land as fast as possible while teching as fast as possible, so that come time to breakout we have at least 7-8 large cities to whip from. Plus if we dilly too long on expansion they might even steal some good spots (they're only ~15 tiles away which is much less of a distance than you might think, especially once they start spamming settlers).

The other thing is this - getting a great person other than a GS majorly sets you back on your research. A GS is worth at least 1500 beakers, so if you get another great person in its place, you have to make up those 1500 beakers and then some to make it worthwhile. And what can a great spy or prophet do to do that in the timeframe that we're talking about? Virtually nothing. Shrines are out since to make those profitable we need missionary spam which is a whole 'nother hammersink. Steal tech...sure, but as we saw from the last Lain vid Shaka's one of the worst techers in the game and we might not be able to trust Qin to go for what we need. So, by building the great wall and henge, we are setting ourselves back a city, a worker, and a whole 1500 beakers. And I find that personally hard to justify.

Oh, and as for @Swordnboard 's barb worries - a valid concern. But I don't think I've ever even seen a barb axe on imm+ difficulty, and in any case the solution to that unlikely scenario is to whip a chariot boi. That'll be enough to eat up barb axes all day .

 

[Olafeson]

FWIW, Both were built before T50

Yeah some saves got more lucky with the wonderdates. But i guess all saves can still get the pyramids if they want to. Also what does FWIW stand for ? I have no idea.

 

[Major Tom]

So, by building the great wall and henge, we are setting ourselves back a city, a worker, and a whole 1500 beakers.

Valid points, but that extra city is only a temporary setback until all spots are settled anyway. If they steal spots, it is kind of good thing they clear the jungle for us, no? As for the beakers loss, deduct some for the probability and some for the benefits of extra golden ages (f.ex) later on. So much for the setback.

Edit: On the plus side of his save, we have safety, abundance of golden ages later, probably faster teching early on and last but not least, options.

 

[lymond]

Also what does FWIW stand for ? I have no idea.

For What It's Worth

 

[Fish Man]

Valid points, but that extra city is only a temporary setback until all spots are settled anyway. If they steal spots, it is kind of good thing they clear the jungle for us, no? As for the beakers loss, deduct some for the probability and some for the benefits of extra golden ages (f.ex) later on. So much for the setback.

Edit: On the plus side of his save, we have safety, abundance of golden ages later, probably faster teching early on and last but not least, options.

The sooner a city is founded, the more it can contribute from an earlier date; this snowballs pretty quick.

Normally I'd agree with letting AI settle jungle but when such a resource-rich spot as 2 gems, 2 sugar, and a fish is at stake, I'd rather work them myself and get, I dunno, at least 20 commerce and 8 food/turn than let AI reap benefits for whoever knows how long until I can take with cuirs/cannons.

Golden ages aren't really useful until you've developed at least some commerce/production base, or specifically, are ready for caste quickswitch. For a mid-game GA I'd aim to get the music GA - we need music for cuirs anyways and it's good tradebait. And if we play our cards right only one GA is needed until we can completely smash with cuirs and then potentially get all the GP we want in a better GP farm than the land we have now.

Clearly my bias for a certain military unit is showing, haha. But I feel like going that path is most fun and also leads to the most convincing/fastest win.

 

[Major Tom]

Clearly my bias for a certain military unit is showing, haha. But I feel like going that path is most fun and also leads to the most convincing/fastest win

Full respect for that. And taking/vassaling our continent is a priority. But after that I am probably sick of moving units around so a peaceful endgame is my bias.

 

[Olafeson]

I have a question for our Lady Fippy. I would like to post my Turn 70 empire with 2-3 screenshots in spoiler and some thoughts. I did it before the discussion phase and you asked me to remove it again. Can i post it now? Also i would like to see some screenshots in spoiler from the other players where they explain their choice of action and their plans for the next turnset. Would help a lot with deciding which saves i will vote for.

Would also be nice for the lurkers, if some are still around .

I did it for all 15 saves at Turn 45 but it took me some time.

 

[Tonny]

I've made a list compared to sampsa's t45 overview. Here's you can see in a glimpse how everybody is doing.

 

[Olafeson]

@Tonny

very helpful list. Thanks for the effort dude (did i just assume your gender? sorry!)

Also can you explain the line (f+h+c @100% and 0%). I do not really understand what this number tells us.

 

[Major Tom]

I have a question for our Lady Fippy. I would like to post my Turn 70 empire with 2-3 screenshots in spoiler and some thoughts. I did it before the discussion phase and you asked me to remove it again. Can i post it now? Also i would like to see some screenshots in spoiler from the other players where they explain their choice of action and their plans for the next turnset. Would help a lot with deciding which saves i will vote for.

Would also be nice for the lurkers, if some are still around .

I did it for all 15 saves at Turn 45 but it took me some time.

Yes, it should be ok now. Submitting closed, silent period ends.

 

[Fish Man]

Full respect for that. And taking/vassaling our continent is a priority. But after that I am probably sick of moving units around so a peaceful endgame is my bias.

Science victory has same amount of unit micro except it's 30 workers building workshops instead of 30 cuirs attacking cities .

 

[Major Tom]

Science victory has same amount of unit micro except it's 30 workers building workshops instead of 30 cuirs attacking cities .

Not committed to build workshops if win is certain, but you still have to move units all over the shop

 

[Tonny]

@Tonny

very helpful list. Thanks for the effort dude (did i just assume your gender? sorry!)

Also can you explain the line (f+h+c @100% and 0%). I do not really understand what this number tells us.

It's indeed dude

f+h+c-costs @100% stands for: base food surplus + base hammer surplus + commerce (as shown in top left corner while playing) - gold deficit (as shown in top left) @ 100% science rate.
@ 0% stands for 0% science rate and the gold slider @ 100%.

 

[Major Tom]

A few words about my save based on Tonnys list (on countryside without laptop so cannot look at saves and not provide screenshots before Tuesday).

* Closest to the Pyramids.
* 2nd Most money in treasury.

Edit: So a flexible save. If you choose it, and finishing the mids, you can start sooner planning for real how to takeover continent. Faster mids-> faster techs (rep) -> 25% faster army building (Police state). Remember spiritual. Perhaps a GE along the way for a useful wonder or engineer bulb. Yummy.

 

[Fish Man]

Not committed to build workshops if win is certain, but you still have to move units all over the shop

Well, you're not wrong...

A few words about my save based on Tonnys list (on countryside without laptop so cannot look at saves and not provide screenshots before Tuesday).

* Closest to the Pyramids.
* Most money in treasury.

Edit: So a flexible save. If you choose it, and finishing the mids, you can start sooner planning for real how to takeover continent. Faster mids-> faster techs (rep) -> 25% faster army building (Police state). Remember spiritual. Perhaps a GE along the way for a useful wonder or engineer bulb. Yummy.

Seconded. And a settler in production, to boot, ready to grab the jungle fish spot, settling on the southernmost jungle sugar.

"But why settle jungle???"

Well I'd say 2 gems and a fish are pretty compelling reasons.

"Whaaat? There's fish?"

Yep. My t45 save that was voted out shows that there is indeed FISH up north. Combined with pigs I don't think food will be a problem. Ofc 2nd ring and need IW (or alpha to trade for it) but we have to bite the bullet sometimes.

"What's up with you and fish anyways?"

Well...

Ah, I'm rambling here too. Can't vote either - gotta remember that. But that's my endorsement, at least.

@Lain continues to be the bearer of bad luck both on YT and off; despite having an impressive 6 cities Shaka's probably already planning to kill him (highly doubt he'd plot on someone who's stronger, pleased, and probably not a landtarget at this point). I guess I'm endorsing his save, too - wanna see how he pulls himself out of this one .

 

[Anysense]

Barbs are a nonissue

I must be jinxed then. I made a grave mistake settling with horses in the second ring, and building granary first was a very bad move too.

 

[Major Tom]

And a settler in production, to boot, ready to grab the jungle fish spot, settling on the southernmost jungle sugar

Yes yes yes. Forgot about that. The next turn set will be interesting regarding tech choices. Hate to self tech IW, perhaps go straight to alpha? Trade for IW and bribe a war amongst those buggars up there?