Cookbook #1 (Sally, Immortal)

[krikav]

I've made a list compared to sampsa's t45 overview. Here's you can see in a glimpse how everybody is doing.

Thank you so much for compiling a list!
For sure this is going to be the case no matter what you include and what you ommit, but in that list I feel that I'm getting the short end of the stick.

Hammers in production is not counted. (I a worker at 29/30 and a settler at 33/100, and some half-built granaries.)
Food in city bank. (Most of my citites are close to or half a population, so flooring the values are making my pop look less than I think it is.

No critique, I'm very appreciative of you putting in the effort, just stating my case!

 

[Tonny]

Well, my empire overview and thoughts...

Spoiler :

Mecca is building a settler now while waiting for whip anger (4 turns) to disappear. It can switch to Corn this turn if you decide to whip the worker in Damascus.

Spoiler :

I decided to build a Madrassa in Medina using the mined plains hills for now. Once one whip anger has disappeared (2 turns) I'll switch to Pigs to let it grow again and work 2 plains hill mines. This city can support 2 scientists very soon.

Spoiler :

Damascus can whip the worker this turn. Whatever you like to do. Multiple options here. This city can also act as a helper.

Spoiler :

Baghdad serves as a helper city for Mecca to work cottages. Later, building The Hanging Gardens here is an option.

Spoiler :

Najran is there to connect the Stone (which will be online next turn). With a Monument in place It'll have 5 forests to chop into Pyramids (with Math & Stone it will be 300). Only 100 base needed elsewhere (whips & slow build). I already put 1 turn into Pyramids, because someone mentioned (can't recall who) that when you start on a wonder first AI's are less likely to start on it too. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Spoiler :

Overall...
Fish spot can be your next city from the settler of Mecca.
Tech rate is good with +41/turn. (Highest of all at the moment )
When Mathematics is in you can also go for the Hanging Gardens.
I've encountered few problems with barbs. Only lost one woodie warrior. Currently I'm directing more warriors up north for fb-ing.

 

[Tonny]

Thank you so much for compiling a list!
For sure this is going to be the case no matter what you include and what you ommit, but in that list I feel that I'm getting the short end of the stick.

Hammers in production is not counted. (I a worker at 29/30 and a settler at 33/100, and some half-built granaries.)
Food in city bank. (Most of my citites are close to or half a population, so flooring the values are making my pop look less than I think it is.

No critique, I'm very appreciative of you putting in the effort, just stating my case!

I totally agree with you that the list is not complete. I had to make choices. If I were to include everything, then nobody would have to make their case about their saves and thoughts on how to procede .

 

[krikav]

@krikav Without stonehenge or convenient forests, getting fish city up and running is a bit of a chore, and the end result of that city is pretty good but I didn't find it worth bending over backwards for. If I had a do-over, I would still settle it 7th but leave a forest to chop a monument.
I appreciate that you worked to continue the lean, expansive playstyle, but this map probably needs more of a sharp pivot around T50 or so. Good land is running thin, so the expansion train eventually has to stop in favor of population and cottages (maybe the Mids too). Of course, with really good land, closer opponents and/or HOF situations, you can really just continue expanding the whole game and never have to make the pivot.

There was a nice forest available which I utilized, a forested PH. Timing was quite nice, worked the PH for 2-3 turns then the chop landed.
Interesting concept of "making a sharpt pivot".
Ofcourse, every map present itself differently, and you have to read subtle queues for when to make these turns, sort of how I imagine that a surfer "reads" her wave.
The queues I see here are as you mention good land running thin, although I still think there is more to settle.
What other queues are you seeing, making you to do the call that at T50, the map calls for a change of pace?

And what are you pivoting too? What would you say is a sensible long term plan here?
I'm asking you, because I played your save, and you where one of the few who didn't have pyramids firmly cemented in the plan.

 

[Olafeson]

A few words about my save based on Tonnys list (on countryside without laptop so cannot look at saves and not provide screenshots before Tuesday).

* Closest to the Pyramids.
* Most money in treasury.

Well, you're not wrong...



Seconded. And a settler in production, to boot, ready to grab the jungle fish spot, settling on the southernmost jungle sugar.

"But why settle jungle???"

Well I'd say 2 gems and a fish are pretty compelling reasons.

"Whaaat? There's fish?"

Yep. My t45 save that was voted out shows that there is indeed FISH up north. Combined with pigs I don't think food will be a problem. Ofc 2nd ring and need IW (or alpha to trade for it) but we have to bite the bullet sometimes.

"What's up with you and fish anyways?"

Well...

Ah, I'm rambling here too. Can't vote either - gotta remember that. But that's my endorsement, at least.

@Lain continues to be the bearer of bad luck both on YT and off; despite having an impressive 6 cities Shaka's probably already planning to kill him (highly doubt he'd plot on someone who's stronger, pleased, and probably not a landtarget at this point). I guess I'm endorsing his save, too - wanna see how he pulls himself out of this one .

Ah man, i have the vague

Well, you're not wrong...



Seconded. And a settler in production, to boot, ready to grab the jungle fish spot, settling on the southernmost jungle sugar.

"But why settle jungle???"

Well I'd say 2 gems and a fish are pretty compelling reasons.

"Whaaat? There's fish?"

Yep. My t45 save that was voted out shows that there is indeed FISH up north. Combined with pigs I don't think food will be a problem. Ofc 2nd ring and need IW (or alpha to trade for it) but we have to bite the bullet sometimes.

"What's up with you and fish anyways?"

Well...

Ah, I'm rambling here too. Can't vote either - gotta remember that. But that's my endorsement, at least.

@Lain continues to be the bearer of bad luck both on YT and off; despite having an impressive 6 cities Shaka's probably already planning to kill him (highly doubt he'd plot on someone who's stronger, pleased, and probably not a landtarget at this point). I guess I'm endorsing his save, too - wanna see how he pulls himself out of this one .

Ah man i have the vague feeling here you still annoyed that your save was not voted^^. Besides that anime pic with the fish. He looks like Zero from Code Geass?
Besides that i think you are right. Grabbing BW and get the jungle gems + fish is a strong play here i think.

You stated very valid points, a Great scientist is surely a better GP and SH and TGW will pollute the GP pool. But i think Great Scientist are most valuable liek you stated if you want to bulb philosophy, CS, Education or chemistry. Going for cuirs or canons. i am not sure i want to do that yet. Also i liek getting 1 or 2 early GP doesnt matter what sort. If i want GS i can still get them a bit later with Caste System and a golden age.

 

[Fish Man]

Ah man, i have the vague


Ah man i have the vague feeling here you still annoyed that your save was not voted^^. Besides that anime pic with the fish. He looks like Zero from Code Geass?
Besides that i think you are right. Grabbing BW and get the jungle gems + fish is a strong play here i think.

You stated very valid points, a Great scientist is surely a better GP and SH and TGW will pollute the GP pool. But i think Great Scientist are most valuable liek you stated if you want to bulb philosophy, CS, Education or chemistry. Going for cuirs or canons. i am not sure i want to do that yet. Also i liek getting 1 or 2 early GP doesnt matter what sort. If i want GS i can still get them a bit later with Caste System and a golden age.

Nah, not really annoyed - just milking the running gag that I have a weird obsession with fish and fishy spots. Is that a gag yet? Well, I'll make it one in time. Especially now that I control the NC....

Close, it's Suzaku from Code Geass (you're technically right in that it's Zero but I'll avoid saying anything else to prevent spoilers). From an infamous fan-sub, infamous because...well, you can clearly see why.

The thing with GS is that you can never have too much, but popping a non-GS greatly increases the GPP threshold, to the point where you can only reasonably expect to get 3-4 before the game is decided (unless you're phi or can pull off some crazy caste stunt). There's so many useful things you can bulb, and the more the merrier. Philosophy, education, printing press, lib, chemistry, heck even astro if you skip meditation and CS.

 

[Fippy]

Some statements on cookbooks in general, their purpose and so on.

Not sure if i mentioned it before, but you should always look for who played best when voting.
If i notice that saves are voted on for reasons like "this looks fun, maybe not really well played but i want to see how x or y turns out.."
i will interfere. Putting additional saves into new rounds for their fun factor = something i might do,
your focus should be on rewarding those who played well.

My main goals with this thread are..
a) showing that we can still do more together as community, when Kossin left interesting stuff like those books or micro challenges faded away
b) cookbooks are great for getting detailed info on how others play, what we can learn from them (and they from others), inspiration & ideas as well as overall fun discussions about this great game.
c) competitive but friendly challenges

So how can we manage victory conditions..
let's start with, AP & culture are out. Personally i consider the AP unbalanced, and i doubt we can gain much from going that direction.
Culture games can be fun, but there's lots of clicking next turn so they are not really suited for cookbooks.

Diplo (UN) victories are valid and okay.
As we move on to 1000AD and beyond, i will increase turnset # by quiet a lot, so you can set up your preferred victory condition without stopping often and explaining "guys i went for this and that" Saves can then speak for themselves, and if peoples appreciate your gameplay you can ofc also win with UN or Space.
For now, i think all valid victory conditions have similar goals. You need land & control for space, domi, conquest or UN.

16 Games played

Tonny's Overview

@Olafeson Yep you can show anything you like now..screenies, overviews, promoting your game

 

[Olafeson]

Ah too sad the culture victory is out. I was thinking about it, since i did not went for culture very often in my games. Well anyway good to know.

 

[Major Tom]

Not sure if i mentioned it before, but you should always look for who played best when voting

Can imagine there are several ways to define Best Play, considering different things as safety, commerce, surroundings, beat specific HoF dates or catch them all. Suspect that under current dogma it is about chopping all threes as fast as possible into settlers. (Remember one guy here never chopped threes before math and saving most for space parts, perhaps it was occ tho).

Also, are interesting saves allowed?

 

[Olafeson]

Olafeson T 70 from mscellaneous T45

Spoiler :

Short overview of my cities. As you can see i got TGW and SH too. Both could be chopped with the forests around Damaskus. They will produce a lot of GPP (Great Spy and Great Prophet) which can be used to bulb religious techs or establish a spy economy. Also good for later Golden Ages or even settling, not a terrible choice if you run Rep with the Pyramids. 5 cities and 3 workers. 2 workers in production, 1 of them will be whipped next turn. Damaskus will need 1 turn for size 4 and then will start on the 6th settler. Next cities will probably be in the jungle after Writing and then IW as next tech to grab the gems and the fish to the north.

Safety from barbs and no need to build monuments for border pops. I want to be first either to Caste System or Theology to grab my own religion. Also can use the chichen itza (stonewonder) for failgold. Together with gems, Pyramids, cheap temples and maybe some trades with Shaka and Qin our happy cap will be quite high very early in the game.

As Undefeatable mentioned there is also a downside for building the wonders. I could have 1 city and 1 worker more at this point, if i didn t invest in the wonders. Also they will polute the Great scientist pool, and we will need more GPP for the first scientist if we want to bulb stuff like Astro or Philosophy or Education etc.
Also i missed the failgold by finishing the wonders myself.

My cities lack granaries for now only damaskus has 1 but i personally feel, they are not so important until we can grow a bit more with Representation from the pyramids and maybe our own religion.

My plan is to use a great Prophet to bulb Theology and found Christianity and use the missionary to convert Shaka and Qin. Then later get a 2nd Great Prophet with the help of the Madrassa and build the Church of Nativity (Holy Shrine of Christianity). I hope for lucky autospread on the religion to my cities and the cties of Qin and Shaka.

 

[krikav]

Dogma:
"In the pejorative sense, dogma refers to enforced decisions, such as those of aggressive political interests or authorities.[2][3] More generally, it is applied to some strong belief whose adherents are not willing to rationally discuss it. This attitude is named as a dogmatic one, or as dogmatism; and is often used to refer to matters related to religion, but is not limited to theistic attitudes alone and is often used with respect to political or philosophical dogmas."

I don't think this is remotely true for chopping. I for one is willing to discuss it alot.

I chopped for spaceship parts in the recent BOTM 164.
The map was boreal, so there was forested deer plenty. With only few turns left of the game, chopping them down made alot of sense.
I think this resulted in a victory 2 turns or perhaps only 1 turn earlier.
In the very opening, when you are building your first settler, chopping just one forest earlier can give you a settler 2-3 turns earlier. This speeds up your entire game by at least 1 turn if you where only playing in som sort of sandbox mode.
However, that settler could settle a contested area thereby speeding up your game significantly.

There is a consensus (right or wrong) that early benefits are way more important than later (possibly greater) benefits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_rate
https://www.investopedia.com/walkth...me-value-money/present-value-discounting.aspx
Chopping is just at the focal point of that debate in a civ4 setting.

Other but abit less discussed things are bulbing vs settling great people. Whipping vs slowbuilding.

I think that each and every situation need to be judged on it's own merits. I do that to the best of my capability, and I really believe others do too, I think the strong players chop their forests because they judge it to be most efficient in the given situation, not because it's some sort of accepted religious dogma.

 

[Fippy]

Can imagine there are several ways to define Best Play, considering different things as safety, commerce, surroundings, beat specific HoF dates or catch them all. Suspect that under current dogma it is about chopping all threes as fast as possible into settlers. (Remember one guy here never chopped threes before math and saving most for space parts, perhaps it was occ tho).

Also, are interesting saves allowed?

Hmm well, opinions differ ofc on such a complex game.
We are aiming at an efficient game (anything else would be a bit pointless for cookbooks), or in the case of book #2 on difficult deity.. winning at all
I doubt that bringing HoF as example would be reasonable thou, we are far from using a typical HoF start.
You are working on average (or bad in the other book) starts, and they would be hopeless for record games.

Efficient also means safety, yup.
We can see that often in Lain's videos, think i remember him explaining why he likes going Archery often.
If we have games in the deity book where real dangers are present of losing, they should ofc be rated weaker than those who are i.e. barb secured, and later doing well with diplo even against warmongers.
Or if here there are barbs about to rush in, and no real protection can be seen, those are typical cases for giving minus points which ofc means it's unlikely many will vote for that game.

Now a different example..if an AI plots on one save, and you consider that just bad luck and something out of players hands,
i would not give minus points for that.
If good progress was made in that game (all considering your own view on how progress towards winning games should look like),
it can and should still be considered for getting votes.

Interesting, well this depends on if the interesting situation resulted from gameplay with focus on what that players thinks worked best.
If i build stoniehenge and then settle cities with important tiles mostly in their first ring, it's not good gameplay.
I didn't need that wonder, and should have taken failgold or put hammers into something else.
If i build henge and then settle cities like coastal with fishes in 2nd ring, it's completely different and useful.
How useful? Discuss

 

[krikav]

Based on my own experience, I would rather not have SH. Spy points are more ok, but GProphets I really don't like.
I like planning ahead and focusing. If I need to somehow compromise my gameplay to keep options open for 3 different types of GPeople that is going to be an issue.

I consider building SH when I see that I have a whole lot of cities to settle, this I don't think is the case here.
You do get GPhropets from time to time, since oracle comes into play every now and then. So i have really tried to figure out something useful to do when you get them, and I haven't succeded yet.
Settling them does give a small boost, but it feels very inferior to a GScientist.

Often you find yourself taking a capital of an AI with a myriad of different wonders, building nat-epic in such a city for GA-fodder is nice, but in the early game I really want to select freely, sort of like from a menu, when and what GPeople I get.

 

[Major Tom]

Idon't think this is remotely true for chopping. I for one is willing to discuss it alot.

I am happy with early chopping too but there was a time were maths first was considered also good. Also keeping some for national parks.

Apologize to @Fippy if I've been provoking. It's nice that you have started thread and try to find some consensus. However, what excite me most is if there is one brave soul coming up with a new idea or concept. Are civ4 solved? No more game changers ala espionage assisted culture? Think this will come from one person thinking outside the box, not from a group supporting each other. (hence using the word dogma. Not nice. Paradigm better).

 

[sampsa]

On non-Mids wonders:

My thinking on GProphets is echoing krikav's thoughts. I'd value GProphet-points very low, maybe sometimes even harmful. Of course, the issue is that the really beneficial are delayed. With rep I guess settling can be OK, but remember you are competing against ~1600 bulbs. Bulbing theology can make some sense, but it is forcing your hand and pushing you off of astro path. Also, I'd say building a shrine is rarely worth a GP, so if building SH forces me to plan my strategy around it I'd just rather not go there. The value of free monuments is certainly always existing, though. Still, I chose to rather take the fail rather than SH, but I'm not saying completing SH is completely without merit.

I also have a hard time seeing how GSpy could be good on immortal with these neighbors. Stealing early from rather distant weak techers isn't going to be very lucrative. I guess you can get stuff like IW, construction, HBR, but still, kinda meh. Again,hard to compete with bulbing and by accepting these "free" -points you are making your good GPs more expensive, thus getting less of them, or at least later.

 

[krikav]

Settling the GSPy would work? Some beakers (especially with rep), and enough EPs so that sabotage of walls or city revolts paired with cuirs or knights start to get possible.
I don't know though, since I only build TGW once in a blue moon.

 

[sampsa]

First I want to say that I am always willing to discuss and investigate the merits of new or "alternative" strategies.

I am happy with early chopping too but there was a time were maths first was considered also good. Also keeping some for national parks.

I think WastinTime at least at some point had the habit of waiting for math. However, he is playing a totally different game in a number of ways (marathon, huts, no barbs, HOF-start...) and he's able to reach maths at a relatively early stage.

Also keeping some for national parks.

Intuitively I have very hard time believing that Nat park could be very important, as it comes late and several have already spawned. Anyway, if it is very important, usually we will conquer some cities that have still forests left or find a suitable area outside of our core cities.

 

[sampsa]

Settling the GSPy would work? Some beakers (especially with rep), and enough EPs so that sabotage of walls or city revolts paired with cuirs or knights start to get possible.
I don't know though, since I only build TGW once in a blue moon.

Settling the GSpy with rep gives +6 +12 per turn. However, infiltrating nets an instant +3000, so settling does feel a bit counter-intuitive.

 

[Major Tom]

by accepting these "free" -points you are making your good GPs more expensive, thus getting less of them, or at least later.

It should be able to prove or disprove this by the means of calculating probabilities.
You maybe even get your good GPs faster with them wonders with the cost of a certain probability for failure. 2 GS from madrassa, 2 from GLibrary and plenty more from running caste and/or pacifism from time to time when needed (SPI is very interesting and deserve more attention.)

If getting the Spy perhaps an espionage victory could be a case worth learning more about. There is a brand new strategy article out there. Thanks to @Kaitzilla .

 

[krikav]

Settling the GSpy with rep gives +6 +12 per turn. However, infiltrating nets an instant +3000, so settling does feel a bit counter-intuitive.

Well, beakers are better than EP imho. (I'm rather clueless about espionage though.)
But the most important thing is that settling allows us to change target and distribute the points as we please. The 3000 we get instantly and on one target.

There could be some benefits that I don't know of though. I recently learned from this cookbook that putting EPs is a clever way of slowing an AI down techwise, perhaps dumping 3000 points on shaka will make him shut down his tech almost completely?