Cookbook #1 (Sally, Immortal)

[Swordnboard]

I like Elitetroops' voting plan (3 favorites for the first turnset, one save from each for subsequent turnsets). Maybe people can play all of the variations, but should only post the one they played first to reduce spoilers? Alternatively, people can post for all of them, but in that case we should be sure not to pick more than one save from any particular player.

 

[Powerfaker]

Here's my save. Very curious to see the other saves now....

 

[lymond]

Custom assets was a mess. Played without mod.

@Major Tom Hey Tom, let me know what issues you were having with the BUG install. It should be fairly straightforward, but might be complicated if you have other things installed I'm not aware of or possibly have jacked around with some files.

One thing I will note is that Custom Assets folder can always be completely deleted with no problem at all. Running the game again generates a fresh Custom Assets folder.

 

[Fippy]

Okay so you guys are overall fine with 3 saves first, merci for all thoughts (and welcome back Elite ~~).
I will keep options open for the 2nd vote for now, and will try judging how similar or different they are when we get there.

We will stick with playing from 1 save only for everyone, under gotm rules (one try, no reloads etc),
but after submitting you can ofc take other saves and play them inofficially.
This should not interfer with "how much do i know about the map", as we will discuss all submitted saves together anyways,
and everything you found out should also come up there.

I think everybody knows that, but i will post it officially (as you are "allowed" to play out other saves after submitting, and probably play more loose there)
Under no circumstances should anybody play more than the set amount of turns (45 first round, something like T70 2nd round, and so on),
for fun or out of curiosity. If a mistake happens, like forgetting it's already t45, you can still play new rounds and it's no biggie,
but please never by intention (if you still want to participate later).

More in general, this cookbook can be seen mostly as chance to learn more about all those possibilities while playing Civ.
You get different saves from players with varying experience range, can compare what they did (and we will also discuss how and why),
and hopefully many will learn a move or 2
I still keep learning in this game (i.e. from HoF greats like WT or Kaitzilla, who have much more experience there, or our PR game mechanics master Elite),
so we all can and should be open for those chances.

Voting can be fun, and it's good if peoples show some intention to win,
but nobody loses cos you can all play again next round.
It's more about seeing why was this save picked over mine, maybe,
and what experience gains can i take into my next games from that.

 

[Fippy]

Last day, if you are thinking about adding your save still
I will open discussions tomorrow (early if i get on my pc).

 

[Fish Man]

One possible problem - exploration?

Spoiler :

I did a lot more exploring on my save than others (minor spoiler I know) mostly because of luck with barbs (only ever fought them in forests, also killed a barb archer with woodie woyer), but the value of that exploration is worth less because the map stays the same, so you already know the terrain and can transfer that knowledge even for other people who didn't explore as much beyond their starting area?

 

[Gumbolt]

Yes I think the decision will be more empire based than map based. Having met more Ai could be useful I guess? Will wait for Fippy tomorrow.

 

[Olafeson]

Also one question.

Spoiler :

I think one save file popped a copper at the pig city. Is this fine. Would be quite a huge advantage to play this savefile. I would like to take this savegame maybe.

 

[Fish Man]

Also one question.

Spoiler :

I think one save file popped a copper at the pig city. Is this fine. Would be quite a huge advantage to play this savefile. I would like to take this savegame maybe.

Spoiler :

Literally 1/10000 chance of that happening...wow. I'm tempted to say yes, but also no, since it's bad for learning? Like, it gives a massive edge in terms of barb defense, production, even downright gamebreaking military advantage if you manage to axerush someone, though given the leaders we've met so far that's probably not a consideration. Basically something hugely beneficial that shouldn't be relied on as a normal occurrence that occurs, ever. Like playing Inca .

At the same time, though, it'll probably be unfair to DQ someone based on some astronomical good luck they got. So I guess...when voting, don't take the copper into account? Just pretend it doesn't exist, for the purposes of determining whose empire is in a better state - if that makes sense at all?

 

[c^3]

Looks like an interesting game.

 

[Tonny]

I'd like to see 3 total different saves regarding techs and city placement voted best for the next turnset.

Will there be a list made what each save has done to make choices easier? And if possible with a short description.

 

[sampsa]

I don't think it would make sense to somehow try to control the built-in variance of the game. Some had good luck with barbs, some bad, some popped resources, some not. Later on some will get plotted on, some not, some will get good trades, some not and so on. It's not a competition, but a competitive element of voting for the "best" save and playing the next turn set from that save is an appealing element. It's the essence of this format.

I'd give the hostess full freedom (and responsibility ) on deciding how the game should proceed from now on.

 

[Fish Man]

I don't think it would make sense to somehow try to control the built-in variance of the game. Some had good luck with barbs, some bad, some popped resources, some not. Later on some will get plotted on, some not, some will get good trades, some not and so on. It's not a competition, but a competitive element of voting for the "best" save and playing the next turn set from that save is an appealing element. It's the essence of this format.

I'd give the hostess full freedom (and responsibility ) on deciding how the game should proceed from now on.

Spoiler :

Normally I'd agree with you but this is SO rare that IMO it warrants special consideration. It's like if you rushed 2 archers with 2 warriors, won both fights, and got an AI capital on turn 30 - the odds are literally that low! But yeah, I guess it should be up to @Fippy then.

 

[krikav]

I don't think it would make sense to somehow try to control the built-in variance of the game. Some had good luck with barbs, some bad, some popped resources, some not. Later on some will get plotted on, some not, some will get good trades, some not and so on. It's not a competition, but a competitive element of voting for the "best" save and playing the next turn set from that save is an appealing element. It's the essence of this format.
I'd give the hostess full freedom (and responsibility ) on deciding how the game should proceed from now on.

This will not play out like a normal game with one timeline, so the variance need to be handled in some way.
I would prefer if saves are judged and chosen on their strategic decisions rather than on how good the position is in the different games due to random factors.

Else we will end up with a result that closely mimics the result you get if you play a game and constantly reload after a bad stroke of luck, perfecting your game.

That being said, I lost two warriors to barbs early on, at laughable odds. But this wasn't only bad luck, it was the result of a possibly wrong strategic decision of scouting.

Poping resources is something that I find extremly annoying. Can't believe this functionality isn't considered a "random event" and can be supressed that way. In my games I always worldbuilder them away. >_<

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

Normally I'd agree with you but this is SO rare that IMO it warrants special consideration. It's like if you rushed 2 archers with 2 warriors, won both fights, and got an AI capital on turn 30 - the odds are literally that low! But yeah, I guess it should be up to @Fippy then.

Spoiler :

It's possible for Fippy to edit it in worldbuilder I guess. In that case that save won "only" 20 (copper was popped 10T ago). I wouldn't like that on principle, but no biggie.

This will not play out like a normal game with one timeline, so the variance need to be handled in some way.
I would prefer if saves are judged and chosen on their strategic decisions rather than on how good the position is in the different games due to random factors.

Hmm, we seem to have very different views on what cookbook format should be about. It's very hard for most players to even say if this save is better than that save, let alone try to judge saves based on the level of strategic decision making while trying to ignore variance.

Else we will end up with a result that closely mimics the result you get if you play a game and constantly reload after a bad stroke of luck, perfecting your game.

Yes, obviously when choosing a save out of 15, we will be mimicking reloading or at least always be "running good". It's in-built in this format. If we don't want this, we could do a lottery.

That being said, I lost two warriors to barbs early on, at laughable odds. But this wasn't only bad luck, it was the result of a possibly wrong strategic decision of scouting.

I lost to an animal at 9% and as a consequence later had to move a warrior to a forest without knowing if there is an archer in the area. There was and I lost the ~50% fight. Happens, but I definitely don't think my save should be awarded any extra points because I got unlucky.

Poping resources is something that I find extremly annoying. Can't believe this functionality isn't considered a "random event" and can be supressed that way. In my games I always worldbuilder them away. >_<

With this I sympathize. However, I'm not the game designer and I respect their choices and always play with the rules that I'm given.

 

[Major Tom]

About luck, risk and offbeat actions. I think it is hard to deny voting on the best save. Popping great stuff from mines are not that uncommon, 1 in every 5 games with enough mines?(perhaps building "strange" mines is considered as inferior so popping seems very rare). So that save should be eligible for voting, because offbeat action paid off.
Some took risk while exploring, some players lose warriors, some survive barb encounters. We cannot set limits on moving pieces around.
Think same could be said about city placements. Some are more risky but more rewarding if it survive barb assaults.

People playing with low risk probably will not have a spectacular save and save will be buried after voting.

Think we should just accept that this is the way this format works. It is still interesting.

 

[elitetroops]

I think people are giving too much credit to a popped resource. Yes, it's a nice bonus, but there are many other random factors that can help you a lot more. For example a neighbor plotting on another AI instead of plotting on you. With so many different random factors, it usually evens out and good decision making comes out ahead in the end, as has been showed over and over again in competitive games.

 

[Fish Man]

I think people are giving too much credit to a popped resource. Yes, it's a nice bonus, but there are many other random factors that can help you a lot more. For example a neighbor plotting on another AI instead of plotting on you. With so many different random factors, it usually evens out and good decision making comes out ahead in the end, as has been showed over and over again in competitive games.

Good point actually. I’d take X plotting on Y rather than me over all the resource pops in the world.

On that note: I’m going to bed now. My votes are for my map, @sampsa ’s and @krikav . These are subject to change but I’m busy tomorrow so in case I don’t get back in time, I’ll have voted.

 

[Fippy]

Soooo..please start discussing the games
Deadline has now passed, we have lots of saves and imo this really shows how lively our forum still is

What can be discussed?
Anything you would also think about in normal games.
What you (and others) did until now, why, future plans, map layout that can be seen so far, AIs, city spots, teching, builds, using traits..

..and what cannot be talked about?
Anything that would not be visible from at least one of the current saves.
Obvious i think, there are not many restrictions other than out of place spoilers.

List of saves, in submitted order:

1. Sampsa

2. mscellaneous

3. Olafeson

4. Wrathful

5. swordnboard

6. Tonny

7. Krikav

8. Anysense (not for voting)

9. 6kMan

10. Major Tom

11. Undefeatable

12. Samuel_996

13. floydmcw

14. Gumbolt

15. Powerfaker

16. c^3

I will try working out how to make shorter & easier to read linkes, any tips?
If you spot an error with linked saves, by all means let me know please.
(checking if it's really your save could make sense)


Voting
Once you are sure which of those 15 saves are your favorites,
you can post them in order.
1. gets 3 points
2. gets 2 points
3. gets yup you guessed so, 1 point

If you cannot decide on an order, those points get adjusted..
i.e. if you like all 3 the same, they each get 2 points.
You cannot give more than 6 points total, and i will think about how we divide them if other cases occur.

Everybody can discuss, but only players who posted a save may vote.
Ofc that also means, you cannot vote for your own game

Votes must include reasons why you picked those games.
Those reasons can be short or long typed, can spend one hour or 3mins on that,
but we will need some thoughts on them for a fair competition & learning purposes.
Votes with 0 reasoning will not be accepted.


Resi plops & other lucky or unlucky events
I will not interfer here.
If you like the save which had copper plopped i.e., based on what was done there, goody.
We will have 3 saves to continue from in any case, and everybody can decide for themselves which they pick. All i ask for here: remain neutral towards those saves, and consider them fairly.

Exploration, barbs & units lost..
..aka factors that may happen in all games.
Also up to you how you consider those, if you think exploration is important on this map,
you can give bonus points in your mind for those saves who did well there.
Or warriors lost to barbs (or fights won), i cannot really give guidelines on how you judge that.
Everything can or cannot be included in your final vote.

..aaand finally, i would encourage waiting with voting decisions until some discussion was done.
You may get inspiration from there, which helps "judging" games.

 

[krikav]

I'm not sure I have checked the last saves that where submitted, but when I did look through them I didn't find anyone else going for pottery early.
Floodplains combined with no gold/gem/silver early on always make me want to get some cottages going early. The turns fly by in the early game and getting them cottages down early really pays of imho.
Also, I really dislike farming floodplains, 7 worker turns is huge.

Eager to hear the reasoning from the rest of the crowd!