Corporate Maintenance Explained

[Yakk]

"Why not try to get used to inflation and learn to account for it in your game?" If the only variables are initial game conditions, that's no big deal because they are under the player's absolute control!

Imagine if civ had changed so that at all difficulties above prince, players where killed at 2000 BC. "I'm sorry, the game is over".

Then "Why not try to get used to the time limit and learn to account for it in your game?"

It seems like two things have convolved and led to a rather huge screwup -- the increased inflation wouldn't be that bad without it multiplying corperate costs, and the corperate costs wouldn't be that bad without the huge inflation multiplying it.

Together, however, you run into the situation whereby free economies collapse under the weight of the pair of them.

This removes an entire chunk of the new gameplay -- the modern era -- and screws the game up.

And to someone used to playing on Emperor/Diety, they will have to play massively suboptimally to make it to the modern era at Prince. And when they get there, they'll probably have such a lead that there isn't much of a game to play!

In reality, this could be a matter of either the BTS developers fixing their screwup, or players doing it for them. Because as it stands, this looks really wierd.

 

[phungus420]

"Why not try to get used to inflation and learn to account for it in your game?" If the only variables are initial game conditions, that's no big deal because they are under the player's absolute control!

Look it's simple, get used to it means, Don't use Corporations. Or only expand them to destroy the AIs, tanking their economies (which seems like an exploit to me, fireaxis gave me a 100+ gpt per city weapon? Yeah that's balanced, sure they meant to do that ) Or in an MP game, force everyone into State Property. These are the only solutions, or the only way to "Get used to it." Which, given most of us would like to use corporations for something more then a Civic options forcer, or AI exploit, leads us to think these things are broken. It's your right to believe corps should function in this very narrow defined context, but that makes you dense.

 

[goonie61]

On the Ign review they were disappointed with the way corporations have been implemented. Here is a quote, "We're less happy with the way Corporations work. In their attempts to model the international aspects of modern business, Firaxis have basically turned corporations into offensive weapons you can use to stifle a rival's economy..."
I dont have the game, but by looking at the figures I would have to agree with ign and phungus.

 

[aelf]

On the Ign review they were disappointed with the way corporations have been implemented. Here is a quote, "We're less happy with the way Corporations work. In their attempts to model the international aspects of modern business, Firaxis have basically turned corporations into offensive weapons you can use to stifle a rival's economy..."
I dont have the game, but by looking at the figures I would have to agree with ign and phungus.

Whose figures? You are aware that not all the figures agree, I hope?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yeah, I think the main thing is that the benefit of Corporate offices is designed to be changing Gold into Research/Hammers/Food/Culture

In a more effective way than the Slider/Rush buying

Because this process is limited to your resource # (unlike rushbuying where you can spend as much money as you have), then it should be efficient (at least more so with more resources.)

The issue is that the "conversion factor" changes with game turn, getting Rapidly worse due to quadratic inflation. I'd be OK with ~3 to corporate maintenance, as long as Inflation didn't affect it (it would make Corporations more expensive early on, but it would be a constant cost)

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Inflation is one. The high level increase in corporate fees is another. Considered together, the benefit of domestic spread of corporation at Emperor+ is limited, which basically throws a whole chunk of BtS out of the window for the experienced players.

 

[homan1983]

Corporations don't necessarily have to be spread abroad to be 'profitable'. Using Aelf's example, he was gaining 23 raw for a base -66 Corporate fee.

His city had a Courthouse with 160% inflation, so the fees were actually -33 * 2.60 Inflation = 85.8 .

IIRC, rushbuying costs 6 per raw (Wonder), so 23 * 6 = 138 (equivalent).

No, just no: using rushbuying on a wonder costs twice as much as anything else in the game, and the fact that you have to use a great wonder to prove your point shows exactly why your idea is so flawed at its core.

And remmeber that aelf was hjust about break even, as time goes by it will get worst and worst.

I don't understand why you think corps should be some mindless spamming of branches in foreign cities, we are playing a strategy game - there are games where mindless spamming would work and if they interest people they should go there - not come here and destroy the last hope we have of a nice historical based TBS.

Anyway you keep arguing for arguments sake but I bet you'll feel pretty stupid when you realize that this wasn't their intent when they change the mechanics to east/remove inflation from the calculation.

You know people told me I was crazy when I said that the Portugal UU can carry settlers/workers, people told me that I'm crazy when I said the Dutch Dike can be built on any coast cities because having them only on coast cities with river would make no sense.

Frankly I'm pretty happy actually because as time goes on people are beginning to realize that there is actually something terribly flawed with the current model (hooray for common sense) where the same corporation cost 33 80 turns ago but costs 99 now even though it provides the same benefit.

 

[homan1983]

Seems there are 3 possibilities:
1-The anti-inflationists are right; domestic corporations become a losing proposition as the game goes on, and this is an unintended effect of the inflation increase that Firaxis added to slow down late game teching.

2-domestic corporations ARE a losing proposition as the game goes on due to inflation, but this IS intended. Corporations are designed for either a stepping stone on the way to state property (Marx was right!), or occasionally useful if you need production or oil or aluminum and are commerce rich. (I don't buy the food/science/culture trade off if you then need to lower the slider to pay for it.) Corporations thus, either by design or an unintended side-effect, function better to slow your rivals then aid your cities.

3-There is some strategy that we haven't found yet that will make domestic corporations worthwhile even late into the game. Maybe poeple are wrong about inflation, though I've seen screen shots, or maybe at some magic amount of resources the gains will out weigh the costs. BUT, if this is the case, this strategy must be carefully adhered to. If it there were many ways to use corps. well, they would be more apparent.

(as was said, you must seperate the effects of domestic corps from foreign corp income, since if you were meant to pay for your own by spreading to other civs, you could profit even more by NOT having your own, and STILL spreading to other civs. Vital resource corporations excluded, of course!)

I have found the secrete to number 3: Play as HRE or Zulu

Your corporation cost is HALVED, yes HALVED

If corporations are intended to work like this then DAAAMN those UB are OP

 

[homan1983]

Me too.

The first instinct of a new player who was excited to try out the new concept of religions in Civ4 was to found as many as he could and build as many shrines as he could and spread the religions as much as he could. But more advanced players realised that it's often not worth the effort building more than 1-2 shrines or spreading more than 1-2 religions extensively. Now, isn't that counterintuitive? You are the first to research a tech and you found an awesome religion, you get a prophet and you can build an awesome shrine, but there is a catch? What the heck is this? This is broken!

So basically you're calling people who spread corporations in their civ idiots? First of all if you have a point to make, make it without insulting people.

I played my game and at the start I was doing perfectly fine with corporations in my cities - because a) I had a big commerce economy and b) of foreign corps spread


Then some problems came:

1) Inflation changed the situation - how is it right that something costs triple later than it does now, without the option of removing your own corporation?
2) One of the target civs went SP - so you're telling me I'm a sitting duck if I have corporations because if someone feels like it they can destroy my economy by going SP ?
3) I captured someone who I had spread to and suddenly I lost both a source of income and gained a huge source of spending: You what you're saying is that if we do use corporations (which is an important part of the game and half the point of BTS) then we can't ever conquer people?
4) The AI started spreading the corps to themselves - by your reasoning the AI was programmed to commit suicide because apparently everyone is wrong and the reality is that corporations are just a weapon to use on someone


In any case insulting people by saying they're idiots because they use corporations domestically is petty. Saying that corporations should just be mindless-spamming onto foreign civs is boring. And not making any concrete points to back your view when I see other people try to explain the situation to you is just foolish.

And don't assume that people who are on the forums saying that there is a fundamental flaw with the corporation cost design are just REACTIVE PEOPLE who couldn't handle the difficulty so they keep blaming the game.

FYI me and the other people who posted the screenshots all went on to win the game. And we don't just complain about things that don't work out for us, I may not use many features but I still acknowledge that they are perfectly fine and balanced: I have a problem with corporations because I think corporations have a problem

At the end of the day I play the game for fun, and I don't even show people my wins/losses, so tell me again why I would wan't corporations changed just to make it easier for me to use?

 

[El Koeno]

Frankly I'm pretty happy actually because as time goes on people are beginning to realize that there is actually something terribly flawed with the current model (hooray for common sense) where the same corporation cost 33 80 turns ago but costs 99 now even though it provides the same benefit.

While some of the screenshots posted in this forum do indicate that the corporation feature isn't completely balanced, the increased cost (in terms of gold per turn) for the same effect isn't the problem.

Inflation was added into the game because towards of the end of the game, empires are more developed so there's more gold. This basically means that gold is less valuable. To fix this gold is artificially made more scarce by inflating costs. So while your corporation costs more gold over time, you should have more gold at your disposal making gold is worth less, which keeps the real value of the maintenance more or less the same.

All of this does assume you've found ways of earning more money, but corps do allow you to do this when utilized well. And there still exists the possibility that they've completely missed the mark on the balancing, so I won't argue with you on that point, but I think corp maintenance should be inflated in order to maintain balance.

 

[homan1983]

Your theory is true, however only upto a point. After some time - normally well before corporations are even founded, city income is maxed out!

 

[DrJambo]

Then some problems came:

1) Inflation changed the situation - how is it right that something costs triple later than it does now, without the option of removing your own corporation?
2) One of the target civs went SP - so you're telling me I'm a sitting duck if I have corporations because if someone feels like me they can destroy my economy by going SP ?
3) I captured someone who I had spread to and suddenly I lost both a source of income and gained a huge source of spending: You what you're saying is that if we do use corporations (which is an important part of the game and half thepoint of BTS) then we can't ever conquer people?
4) The AI started spreading the corps to themselved - by your reasoning the AI was programmed to commit suicide because apparently everyone is wrong and the reality is that corporations are just a weapon to use on someone

Really can't argue with those points! Well said.

 

[eric_]

Your theory is true, however only upto a point. After some time - normally well before corporations are even founded, city income is maxed out!

And yet inflation continues...so, there as with corps, you end up with a capped benefit being subjected to an increasing demerit.

I played my game and at the start I was doing perfectly fine with corporations in my cities - because a) I had a big commerce economy and b) of foreign corps spread


Then some problems came:

1) Inflation changed the situation - how is it right that something costs triple later than it does now, without the option of removing your own corporation?
2) One of the target civs went SP - so you're telling me I'm a sitting duck if I have corporations because if someone feels like it they can destroy my economy by going SP ?
3) I captured someone who I had spread to and suddenly I lost both a source of income and gained a huge source of spending: You what you're saying is that if we do use corporations (which is an important part of the game and half the point of BTS) then we can't ever conquer people?
4) The AI started spreading the corps to themselves - by your reasoning the AI was programmed to commit suicide because apparently everyone is wrong and the reality is that corporations are just a weapon to use on someone

You're making this a black and white issue, but that's not what it is. Your options are not limited to "spreading it widely" and "not spreading it at all"; there's another option: spread it in moderation. If you're providing an AI with a valuable resource, and you don't tank their economy, they will be less likely to go to SP. If you spam them, and they go to SP, well, that's your own fault, imo. It's clear that such a strategy simply will not work. So, spread it in moderation to foreign cities in civs that need the bonus. Spread it even more sparingly to yourself.

And, yes, it would seem that spreading it to a civ you plan to conquer is a bad idea. But, I fail to see why this means you can conquer no one at all. Just don't conquer a civ who is running a ton of corps.

Also, if the AI is spreading corps to itself to an extent that tanks its economy (any screenshots to show this happening?), I agree that's a problem, but with the AI programming more than anything else. It needs to be "taught" the concept of moderation.

At any rate, I should be getting my copy today or tomorrow. For the record, I'm more than willing to eat every word I've uttered in defense of the corp system. I really don't care if I'm right, it's just that, as it stands, I don't see an irrefutable problem other than people not using corps carefully. For sure the inflation curve is steep, but it seems to only really be a problem when corps are misused/overused...

 

[homan1983]

You're making this a black and white issue, but that's not what it is. Your options are not limited to "spreading it widely" and "not spreading it at all"; there's another option: spread it in moderation. If you're providing an AI with a valuable resource, and you don't tank their economy, they will be less likely to go to SP. If you spam them, and they go to SP, well, that's your own fault, imo. It's clear that such a strategy simply will not work. So, spread it in moderation to foreign cities in civs that need the bonus. Spread it even more sparingly to yourself.

You make a very good point in saying that "spread it in moderation, even to foreign countries and this won't be a problem" - and this is actually even true but there are some problems that you aren't envisioning:

- Spreading it in moderation simply means that the huge cost of corporations later in the game is camouflaged by the many cities that don't run corporations. Its basically a smokescreen because paying an extra 100 for 1 city in a country of 13 cities won't be obvious.
This doesn't change the fundamental flaw that by the time inflation reaches a point, corporations aren't worth it.

- You must understand that if you're only going to spread corporations into a few cities, you're better off running SP/CS. This way you get yourself a few good GPs that you may have saved for many many turns [which I did to guarantee some corps]. And you get to research military techs instead of beelining for corporation techs. And also you don't have to worry about getting lots of resources - or getting open borders.
Think of it as opportunity cost: My friend may come to me and say: "I have this great business plan, we have to work very hard but I think we can make 3% profit per year, are you interested?"

Well sure 3% profit is profit, but why bother with all the hassle when a bank saving acount gives mee 5.5% interest in the first place? And instead of doing all that work on the business (aka beelining tech, saving GP for hundred years) I can be concentrating on other things (killing off people to double my number of cities).

 

[DrJambo]

Eric, I really wish those who would offer valuable insights on the game's mechanics would actually have the simple decency of having played it! It's hard enough to judge the majority of posts with regards to opinion or experience, with the latter giving so much more weight to the former...

Anyhow, by far and away the most important point of homan1983's post was no. 4. We've heard from various 'testers' that the AI knows how to use the features in BtS. Well, maybe that's true or maybe it's not. What I would say though, is either the AI personalities like to go SP or Mercantilism and shun corps, or they like to spam them arbitrarily among all their cities. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground, and the most worrying thing about this, is it doesn't seem to depend on whether they own the HQ or not.

Take Mansa for example. He's a tech monster and an open borders, free market kind of AI, and we all know he's likely to be among the front-runners in tech. So, come the Industrial age - want to stop him dead in his tracks? Simple. Just found a corp and pass it to only one of his cities. He'll do the rest of spreading around each and every one of his cities and at the same time providing the finance to your HQ. Not only that, but he'll also throw into the bargain his own complete and utter late game commercial capitulation. He'll even have the corp in cities without courthouses. Brilliant.....

 

[eric_]

Eric, I really wish those who would offer valuable insights on the game's mechanics would actually have the simple decency of having played it!

Oh, my bad, I didn't realize a concept was not understandable until encountered directly.

If I were not being clear about my not yet having the game from early on in this debate, I could maybe understand your beef. But, since I've been clear, you had the option of ignoring my comments. If you missed those posts where I've mentioned that, well, I'd appreciate the decency of you reading all my posts before commenting about them.

Furthermore, there are people who have played the game extensively who apparently agree with my thoughts, one of whom started this thread and broke down the corp math to the last decimal. I won't say they agree with everything, but certainly my sense of corps being a balancing act that requires careful implementation.

What I would say though is either the AI personalities like to go SP or Mercantilism and shun corps, or they like to spam them arbitrarily among all their cities.

I've repeatedly acknowledged that if this is true, it's a serious problem with implementation. Have you encountered them arbitrarily spamming themselves with corps? The Mansa example seems to be a theorized outcome, not an experienced one. My apologies if I'm misunderstanding you in that regard.

 

[El Koeno]

Your theory is true, however only upto a point. After some time - normally well before corporations are even founded, city income is maxed out!

Well, there's a few things that increase gold yield after the maxing out of cities. In my experience, corporations like Sid's Sushi allow cities to grow further. Trade routes keep getting richer and richer. Corp HQ income grows if you spread branches, even selectively. Usually, I can get more out of resource trades later on. I guess better players can find some more extra sources of income. Not sure whether it balances out with inflation. But all I'm saying is there's usually lots of opportunities for gaining gold even if your cities have been maxed out, justifying at least some degree of inflation.

I'm not saying this mechanic is well balanced (I really can't judge), but in my experience it is not as broken as you keep saying it is, because I've certainly had fun with them.

 

[Kopernikus1979]

Of course, this means that sending your corporations to other cities can make them lose about 10 gold/turn per corp. Do that to a few cities, and your enemies are going to feel a lot of pain.

That's why I say: corporations are too much. At the moment I'm playing a game where I don't have invented a corp yet, but one of my foes. So he developed Mining Inc and is now spreading it in my cities. The consequence for me is: I loose money (a lot), had to reduce my technology rate and I had to reach communism to get Free Market (no cause of corporations). Isn't that too much?? So I wish to banish corporations out of my cities, but that's not possible (and it should be!!) and maybe it should be possible to have the game option "no corporations" at start because it's really unbalanced.

 

[eric_]

Kopernikus, if you switch to SP, your enemy will be the one experiencing the economic drain.

Is the AI doing this or a human player?

 

[aelf]

A problem with the AI doesn't mean corps are broken. It means there is a problem with the AI.