Corporate Maintenance Explained

[Danielos]

This discussion would be a lot easier if just someone from Firaxis could give an official word about it. Is corporations working as intended or not? Please...

They are visiting CivFanatics sometimes, right?

 

[marioflag]

It's posts like this that embolden my resolve that Corporations are not as broke as many are making them out to be.

When one player says they're overpowered and another says they're broke, then the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

I mean that Corporations have effects which are really strong in both cases.
Paying 15-16 gold in the best case just to get 2-3 additional food is IMO not really balanced, and as other people said using Corporations shouldn't be just a weapon to create havoc in enemy's economy, in some cases it should have a negative effect on another civ's economy in other cases it should be beneficial.Actually i see really a few benefits from hosting a foreign corporation.In the opposite case founding a corporation gives you 5 gold per city.Considering that in late game is really easy to build 1-2 corporation executives per turn to send in other cities and that all civics,wonder and buildings, which multiplies your gold income are already available, it's not that hard to make a city producing 500-600 gold/turn in just 60-70 turns, like in my last game.Personally i don't understand the problem of inflation because there are more turns to play, more toys to improve your production,research, commerce and so something to slowdown the game is really needed, but corporations needs to be a bit reworked.

 

[homan1983]

When one player says they're overpowered and another says they're broke, then the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

You don't know how much I wish this were true, sadly the reality is that there is a set of circumstances under which corporations are absolutely fine, and others where its flat out broken.

Or put another way, if a marathon player says "poison water supply is broke" and a normal-speed player states "poison water supply is underpowered" does that mean that the answer is "probably somewhere in the middle"?

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Hi

Can you tell me what you mean when you say Emperor has 30% more Corp Maintenance [since you have a seperate inflation]?
If what you're saying is the case then its REALLY disappointing and sort of explains why some people find corporations perfect and others have problems.

For all the times you've demeaned others for not reading posts/threads, hearing that statement is nothing less than a shock:

• Difficulty.
  
  After the above value has been determined, multiply it by the following Difficulty modifiers, which are 1 +/- 0.1 for each level above/below Noble:
  
  

  Settler    =  *0.7
  Chieftain  =  *0.8
  Warlord    =  *0.9
  Noble      =  *1.0
  Prince     =  *1.1
  Monarch    =  *1.2
  Emperor    =  *1.3
  Immortal   =  *1.4
  Deity      =  *1.5

You don't know how much I wish this were true, sadly the reality is that there is a set of circumstances under which corporations are absolutely fine, and others where its flat out broken.

Or put another way, if a marathon player says "poison water supply is broke" and a normal-speed player states "poison water supply is underpowered" does that mean that the answer is "probably somewhere in the middle"?

Because of the added qualifier, "marathon," I have to agree. It really is broken at non-Normal speeds (I have a post proving it's about 500% more powerful than it should be).

Otherwise a very good point, because many of these "Corporations are ___ ..." posts lack qualifiers determining under what conditions they are broke.

(Mathematically, it appears Foreign Corporations in your cities is a danger that may not be manageable at higher difficulties.)

If at Noble, Corporations really are a break-even (or worse, a "must spread abroad") proposition, then that would explain why results are varying so much.

I play most of my games at Prince/Monarch and found my own Corporations, so maybe I'm still on the bell of this curve. I'll try to play more non-Domestic Corporation games after this moving job is over.

 

[eric_]

So, I finally got the game, and I saw this in the manual (sorry if it's been posted already):

Corporations are entities that produce a great deal of gold or a commodity for a city with access to the proper resources, but in return they incur a significant maintenance cost. When used correctly they can make your civilization wealthy beyond compare; but when used injudiciously they can cause you a great deal of trouble.

Emphasis added by me. So it would seem that the lingering question is, simply, did they intend it to cause quite as much trouble as some have encountered?

Won't have a chance to play until tomorrow.

 

[phungus420]

For that qualifier to be accurate it would have to say, "But thier only use in the later game is to bankrupt a rival"

 

[Bandobras Took]

As an interesting side note, Hatshepsut (AI) switched to state property the very turn that my first corporate executive arrived in the territory. Might have been coincidence, though.

 

[mrt144]

As an interesting side note, Hatshepsut (AI) switched to state property the very turn that my first corporate executive arrived in the territory. Might have been coincidence, though.

If not though, good for her

 

[rickb]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so pardon me if this has been brought up already, but did anybody just go look at the source code? After being shocked at the 70 gold maintenance fee after founding 2 corp HQ's, I futzed with the XML and kept setting iMaintenance lower and lower until I hit 0, which, to my surprise, didn't actually set the maintenance to 0.

Here is the relevant code, if I'm reading it right, the base maintenance is tied to the amount of gold your HQ takes in for each corp established (iHeadquarterCommerce) plus the bonus maintenance specified by iMaintenance times the number of resources, all multiplied by (population + 17)/18 and the usual handicap/game speed modifiers.

int CvCity::calculateCorporationMaintenanceTimes100(CorporationTypes eCorporation) const
{
int iMaintenance = 0;

for (int iCommerce = 0; iCommerce < NUM_COMMERCE_TYPES; ++iCommerce)
{
iMaintenance += 100 * GC.getCorporationInfo(eCorporation).getHeadquarterCommerce(iCommerce);
}

int iNumBonuses = 0;
for (int i = 0; i < GC.getNUM_CORPORATION_PREREQ_BONUSES(); ++i)
{
BonusTypes eBonus = (BonusTypes)GC.getCorporationInfo(eCorporation).getPrereqBonus(i);
if (NO_BONUS != eBonus)
{
iNumBonuses += getNumBonuses(eBonus);
}
}

int iBonusMaintenance = GC.getCorporationInfo(eCorporation).getMaintenance() * iNumBonuses;
iBonusMaintenance *= GC.getWorldInfo(GC.getMapINLINE().getWorldSize()).getCorporationMaintenancePercent();
iBonusMaintenance /= 100;
iMaintenance += iBonusMaintenance;

iMaintenance *= (getPopulation() + 17);
iMaintenance /= 18;

iMaintenance *= GC.getHandicapInfo(getHandicapType()).getCorporationMaintenancePercent();
iMaintenance /= 100;

iMaintenance *= max(0, (GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).getCorporationMaintenanceModifier() + 100));
iMaintenance /= 100;

return iMaintenance;
}

 

[El Koeno]

Here is the relevant code, if I'm reading it right, the base maintenance is tied to the amount of gold your HQ takes in for each corp established (iHeadquarterCommerce) plus the bonus maintenance specified by iMaintenance times the number of resources, all multiplied by (population + 17)/18 and the usual handicap/game speed modifiers.

Since I'm allergic to anything code-like, I have to ask: Did you just say that spreading corporations abroad actually increases the maintenance of your domestic corporate branches?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^no, maintenance cost is based on what the Corporate Commerce amount is (5 gold)

In any case, the 'fair value' of a resource consumed is reasonable to determine as that is another way of getting it by giving up gold

Hammers= Cash rush... 'raw' Hammers in a Factory City are worth 6 Gold (more in IW/Military Academy/Heroic Epic/Wonder building City)

Research, Gold, Culture=Slider... each is equivalent to one raw commerce, so that if you are losing from Bank cities, its value is 2 Gold each

Food=Tile Improvements (Town->Farm) assuming Biology, Printing Press, Banks, (Free Speech, not US)... cost is 7 raw Commerce for 2 food or 7 Gold per food [Or Representation specialists 2 Food->6 Raw Commerce = 1 Gold-> 6 'Processed' Commerce]

so benefit per consumed (*= ignoring Culture)

Jewelers=10 (1 Gold=2, 4 Cult=8)
Constructions=9 (0.5 H=3, 3 Cult=6)
Sushi=7.5 (0.5 F=3.5, 2 Cult=4)
Mining=6 (1H=6)
Aluminum=6 (3 Flask=6)
Cereral=5.25 (0.75 F=5.25)
Ethanol=4 (2 Flask=4)
Sushi*=3.5
Constr*=3
Jewel*=2

The level of maintenance should never, in the worst circumstance, be more than the 'Other' method of generating the resources, so Final modified maintenance / resources should be ~4

If that is true, then Foreign corps Can be useful. (if you actually want those outputs, the Culture may not be valuable enough)

How useful they are depend on the other factors (Civic, Difficulty level, population size)

 

[El Koeno]

^no, maintenance cost is based on what the Corporate Commerce amount is (5 gold)

Oh I see, thanks.

Sushi=7.5
Creative Constructions=7
Jewelers=6
Mining Co.=6
Aluminum Co=6
Cereral Mills=5.25
Standard Ethanol=4

The level of maintenance should never, in the worst circumstance, be more than the 'Other' method of generating the resources, so Final modified maintenance / resources should be ~4

That means that Foreign corps Can be useful.

How useful they are depens on the other factors (Civic, Difficulty level, population size)

So Sid's Sushi seems to be the most valuable one*, and Stanard Ethanol is only worth it if you don't have oil. Or you are somehow managing to run 100% science with all this inflation going on and still want more science.

EDIT: *Perhaps this is why I saw both Huayna Capac and Sitting Bull spamming this, and becoming cultural powerhouses while they were at it.

 

[Caldazar]

Yes, I do think the AI votes smarter in general in BtS.

this is why, if I were redesigning corporations, Hq income would be less, so that Foreign corps would give a benefit to both parties. We have espionage as a "hurt me a little, hurt you more" mechanic. Corporations would be interesting as a "help you a little, help me more" mechanic.

I really like this idea!

Perhaps HQ shouldn't earn a fixed amount of cash for each branch, instead the return should somehow reflect how helpful that corp is to a specific city. So, by creating a branch in a foreign city/capital shouldn't just ensure a good profit for you...

Corporations would definitly not work as a weapon anymore which is all good!

 

[klokwerk]

As an interesting side note, Hatshepsut (AI) switched to state property the very turn that my first corporate executive arrived in the territory. Might have been coincidence, though.

It's clearly no coincidence. I sent 3 executives to the Romans, spread my corps and... they switched to state property.

If they're a small civ though, they should stay in free market (and that's what the AI generally does) since the maintenance cost is small (not many resources).

 

[El Koeno]

Corporations would definitly not work as a weapon anymore which is all good!

Yes, but Firaxis are a bunch of commies who think corporations are pure evil.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Oh I see, thanks.




So Sid's Sushi seems to be the most valuable one*, and Stanard Ethanol is only worth it if you don't have oil. Or you are somehow managing to run 100% science with all this inflation going on and still want more science.

EDIT: *Perhaps this is why I saw both Huayna Capac and Sitting Bull spamming this, and becoming cultural powerhouses while they were at it.

PS changed the stats,(after reexamining the output) Jewelers is actually the most Valuable.. if you want Culture.. if you don't care about Culture, Mining Inc is probably the best (Aluminum Co. uses too few resources, but it is good for Oxford)

 

[Volapyk]

I must agree to what several people have already pointed out, the advantages of owning a corporation headquater is just too good.

I would like to give you an example from my firs BTS game.

Large map with low sea level, giving us plenty of land to expand on.
Throughout the entire game my biggest rival was my best friend, Victoria, combined we controled nearly 80% of the world (with Vassals and such) towards the end. Now as this was my first BTS game I just had to test the corporations, so I saved a great merchant for the sushi corporation, seeing that it gave me +13 I quickly spread it to all my cities. Now most of you are thinking how the hell my economi could take that, well in short it couldnt, I had to reduce science output to a meager 20% for several dozens of turns. So what to do? Well I could spread it to some foreign cities and have them pay my expenses, so as fast as I could I spread it to a few of Victorias cities, as well as a few of my vassals cities, and I could just watch in wonder as my economy not only got back on track, but was literaly booming, apparantly Victoria and my vassals started spamming it to every city they owned. The result was 100% Science output and still several hundred gold straight into my treasury every turn. Now the intersting part is that earlier a vote in the UN for a global envirementalism had been passed. So now I could just watch how every single civ in the game ran with a low or none at all research, they where simply stalled with 300 turns a-tech research, it didnt take long before I decided to end it with a quick trampling of every single opponent there was. Having put no tech brokering on I safely gave my vassals the techs to build some heavy units compared to everyone else. In short it ended with the AI stuck at infantery while my modern armors just ran them over suported my nukes, stealth fighters, and what not avaible.

Hmm I ramble, my point is this:
Corporations can be interisting for the game play, but they defenitly need some work still, or the AI needs to know how to work them. The headquaters simply give you too much gold, and the mainteince is too high by far.

I wonder is it possible to spread say Creative Constructions in a foreign city hosting a competing corporation? For that could prove an interesting battle of whom spammed the most executives...

 

[KrikkitTwo]

.Hmm I ramble, my point is this:
Corporations can be interisting for the game play, but they defenitly need some work still, or the AI needs to know how to work them. The headquaters simply give you too much gold, and the mainteince is too high by far.

I wonder is it possible to spread say Creative Constructions in a foreign city hosting a competing corporation? For that could prove an interesting battle of whom spammed the most executives...

Yes, but it costs more to put that Branch In

Perhaps the HQ bonus (and the Base Maintenance) should be lowered.. perhaps to 3

In any case I see several solutions with increasing level of change

1. Reduce Corporate maintenance to probably 2 +0.5 per resource

2. reduce Inflation (get it back to a reasonable ~100% and leave the Corporate maintenance as is)

3. Make Corporate Maintenance like Civic Maintenance, it doesn't go through cities (so no Courthouse/City size effect) and then add it After Inflation [you are just charged for the total active Offices, and total resources consumed in your empire]... change to 5+2 per resource

4. Decouple Corporate maintenance from inflation while having it still go through cities [change to 5+2 per resource]


I'm not sure if its 3 or 4 I prefer (I like courthouses having an effect, but I don't like the Rathaus's super bonus as much...4 is probably better)

 

[mrt144]

i suggested reducing inflation and increasing the costs to found a corp office for each new one you found. (200*(1+outstanding corporate offices of that type of corporation)

 

[homan1983]

Good ideas mrt, as an addition, I really would like to see AIs not absolutety destroy their economies in lategame with their own spread of corporations [especially if the current system remains the same].
It makes for quite boring endgame.