Corporation Strategy

[AdamCrock]

I agree with this, unless you happen to be running a FIN civ.

Yeah but FIN gives +1 and according to some WS is still not worth it because it works only with

The problem with banks are that they come really late.

For me "late" is lake never It might be another unpopular opinion but I never thought of something is bad because it's late. Missile Cruisers for example are awesome - best unit in the game imho ! Space Elevator ? Why not ! missiles ? I love 'em ! Navy SEALs allright ! It might be just me though and my playing style because Im not aiming for a quickest possible win. My gaming "philosophy" is to try get the maximum enjoyment of it. Im also focused on building greatest, most prosperous civilization possible, with lots of great, powerfull cities and happy citizens and I try to be a good leader instead on focusing only on the winning conditions In some games Im like : what I won culture ? Already ? I was not planning it ! lol ! xD

Also someone argued that building a bank is not worth it because of the turns lost. That's not true in my opinion because some of my really powerful cities could sometimes build a bank in like 3-4 turns and building wealth is not so ideal for me because it converts only 50% to and another 50% goes to waste. I also do not like pangea maps because the limit the possibilites given to a player - he cannot have fun with navy for example and navy is so much fun for me ^^

Also let's compare it to buildin a unit - You spent 3-4 turns building a unit and it died like on 80% chance win odds and didn't did practically nothing , isn't that just a waste of ? xD

Apart from that corporation without a bank and wall-street ? > Never ! xD

 

[elitetroops]

Well, I think you pretty much just proved our point. Your strategy with banks and WS aims to avoid winning the game. Sure, if you want to play around on the lower levels and always reach the future era, then go ahead and build every available building and wonder and found every religion also just because you can. That is the best way to avoid winning. But to use those ideas to argue against strategy that aims to win the game quickly and efficiently is rather pointless.

I'm not sure why you think only 50% of hammers are converted into wealth... Was it like that in some earlier version of the game?

As for units, they die. Which is why you want more of them, in case you actually are playing to win. Even if a unit dies in the first battle, it's not a waste, because you still have one more unit left than you would have had if you hadn't built that unit and killed of another unit instead.

 

[lymond]

Pre-BTS wealth conversion was less. Can't remember how much but it was pretty bad.

 

[elitetroops]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up lymond!

 

[AdamCrock]

Why are You so angry elitetroops ? Im not trying to avoid winning. Besides I didn't argued about founding a religions - exactly the opposite I've said that I don't like them and prefer free religion I don't emphasize on having a holy city with a shrine , somebody else said that it is neccesary to build WS in shrined holy city - I prefer bureaucracy and playing with sliders Also I did not said I'd like to build every wonder there is I have a few favourites like GL or GH when having a nice coastal capital. My point is only that banks are not bad of an improvement ! Only that !

Besides I think it is neccesary to have banks and WS when You're aiming at having corporations <- which is the point of this conversation actually

Pre-BTS wealth conversion was less. Can't remember how much but it was pretty bad.

Oh yes Sorry about that I've made a mistake earlier I've said that building wealth is converting 50% of to and in unmoded bts it's 100% . It's just that I often play mods and currently in one that I'm playing the conversion is 50 % Well that doesn't change the fact that I still think that bank improvement is worth it xD

 

[elitetroops]

Angry? It takes a lot to get me angry. Games or forum discussions are not enough to achieve that.

Just pointing out that we clearly have different interests when playing the game and as such an agreement on this topic can not be reached. I'm trying to give advice that can help people achieve better victory dates and move up in difficulty levels, but if that is not in your interests, then feel free to disregard the advice and play whatever way you want.

And banks are not always bad. It's just that in the majority of my game the tech comes too late to make any difference. If the game drags on longer and you get to corps, then WS could become an important wonder, as has already been mentioned several times. But still... please build Oxford in your cap instead.

 

[AdamCrock]

Angry? It takes a lot to get me angry. Games or forum discussions are not enough to achieve that.

Just pointing out that we clearly have different interests when playing the game and as such an agreement on this topic can not be reached. I'm trying to give advice that can help people achieve better victory dates and move up in difficulty levels, but if that is not in your interests, then feel free to disregard the advice and play whatever way you want.

And banks are not always bad. It's just that in the majority of my game the tech comes too late to make any difference. If the game drags on longer and you get to corps, then WS could become an important wonder, as has already been mentioned several times. But still... please build Oxford in your cap instead.

If You're not angry than please forgive me it's just that I got that impression
Of course. That is a good advice Building Oxford in my capital is always higher on a priority list over any corporation and WS And of course You guys are right that bureaucracy is usless for the corporation unless You have WS+HQ in Your capital which is often worse "move" than having Oxford/NE in Your capital. NE gives an important advantage early on and if You like to win games quicker You'd definitely want NE + library + academy + GL and if it's a coastal city also Great Lighthouse in Your capital which gives an outstanding boost early on Of course founding an early religion is bad too To say the truth I ignore religions early on entirely focusing rather on tile developement, expansion and specialization of cities early. If a population is to angry I whip'em to get the infrastructure up and running quickly. Discovering monarchy gives me an opportunity to raise populations a bit or an opportunity for more whipping. Of course like I've said I like idnustrial and modern eras very much and I usually try to play them but if there's an opportunity to win than why not Im not delaying it on purpose but Im not entirely focused on the winning conditions either

 

[ThorHammerz]

-Snip-

Are "" and "" equivalent and interchangeable with "," and "." now?

Banks might not be very high on the "to-build" (especially in your periphery/non-core cities) list in higher difficulties, just because you're too busy with trying to min-max-optimize everything just to stay on-par with the AI's ridiculous handicap bonuses.

 

[Tatran]

From memory, building wealth in vanilla had a 1 : 4 ratio, just like in civ5.
Also, unlike most other national wonders, there's no discount when building Wall Street.

Mining Inc. is by far the best corporation.
I don't like Sid Sushi's Co., because it's always an invitation to start wars by the AI.

 

[AdamCrock]

Are "" and "" equivalent and interchangeable with "," and "." now?

Banks might not be very high on the "to-build" (especially in your periphery/non-core cities) list in higher difficulties, just because you're too busy with trying to min-max-optimize everything just to stay on-par with the AI's ridiculous handicap bonuses.

Yes "" and "" are now equivalent of "." and ","

I understand Your logic. I usualy play on Noble because I do not like stressing myself over aforementioned ridiculous handicaps ""

 

[lymond]

I don't like Sid Sushi's Co., because it's always an invitation to start wars by the AI.

Please explain..Sushi is one of the best corps

Civ5 hammer conversions are annoying, but then the game is annoying

 

[ThorHammerz]

Please explain..Sushi is one of the best corps
Civ5 hammer conversions are annoying, but then the game is annoying

I think the reason why the AI will be more inclined to start wars once you acquire Sushi, is simply because you are border-pressing them too much due to the extra culture you are dumping across the map.

On a side note, I've had Shaka DoW me just because my new(ish) city stole 3 squares of one of his border city's BFC......

 

[lymond]

Well, you are talking a bunch of randomness anyway regardless. And by that point you should be far superior militarily or have diplomatic options at your disposal. That kinda stuff can be controlled militarily or diplomatically, but fear of AIs should have 0 to do with the value of corporations.

AIs like Shaka always have very high chance of Dowing if they are neighbors regardless of culture pressure, and settling in his face is not a good idea unless you are prepared to fight anyway.

 

[s.bernbaum]

By going out of my way to buddy up with Shaka, I have, in more than one game, managed to culture flip a couple of his cities when we were side by side neighbors without having him DoW me. Of course, it helped that I was also the top military civ, even though I was pursuing a peaceful victory condition. I recall using Sid's Sushi in at least one of those games. I was playing at Noble level at that time. The situation has not come up more recently.

 

[ThorHammerz]

By going out of my way to buddy up with Shaka, I have, in more than one game, managed to culture flip a couple of his cities when we were side by side neighbors without having him DoW me. Of course, it helped that I was also the top military civ, even though I was pursuing a peaceful victory condition. I recall using Sid's Sushi in at least one of those games. I was playing at Noble level at that time. The situation has not come up more recently.

More often than not, I find myself on the "other religious camp" than Shaka.... keeping him at Cautious is about all I can do with the "you have fallen under a heathen religion" + "you have traded with our worst enemies" + "you refused to pay tribute" (sorry buddy, you're not getting free gunpowder 2 turns after I get it...) modifiers.....

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

I'm not sure why you think only 50% of hammers are converted into wealth... Was it like that in some earlier version of the game?

Pre-BTS wealth conversion was less. Can't remember how much but it was pretty bad.

From memory, building wealth in vanilla had a 1 : 4 ratio, just like in civ5.

In Warlords it was 50% (1:2) and I suspect it was the same in Vanilla, but I do not know for sure.

 

[AdamCrock]

After some thinking I oficially declare :

"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies. " obsolete

and

"Banking establishments are less dangerous than old grannies. " established

Sorry ol' Tom (if You're turning in Your grave now) but Your quote don't work for CIV IV

edit> btw. Does anyone (like me) misses the way You could win the game in SMAC I mean "corner planetary market" - You just paid a handsome sum of energy credits et voilà - game won ! xD

 

[Tatran]

After checking it (I should have done this before typing), the ratio is indeed 1 : 2 in vanilla. I haven´t cheched it for gold.

Fishnets are almost impossible to protect. They can be destroyed/pillaged by regular boats, subs and even airplanes.
One enemy destroyer or submarine can pillage your whole territory if you don't kill it fast enough.
Probably a weak navy and too many seafood makes you a target for a phony war.

 

[AdamCrock]

After checking it (I should have done this before typing), the ratio is indeed 1 : 2 in vanilla. I haven´t cheched it for gold.

Fishnets are almost impossible to protect. They can be destroyed/pillaged by regular boats, subs and even airplanes.
One enemy destroyer or submarine can pillage your whole territory if you don't kill it fast enough.
Probably a weak navy and too many seafood makes you a target for a phony war.

Protecting Yourself agains naval pillage can be a nuisance that's true, but that is why I always opt to maintain a large naval force and often place my ships and subs on the spot where the improvements are. Planes are really nasty though but I have not yet seen enemy pillaging my fishing nets with planes instead of bombing my units On the bright side Your fishing nets cannot be pillaged by spies

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

On the bright side Your fishing nets cannot be pillaged by spies

Actually they can if the spy is aboard a Caravel or Attack Submarine, as I found out to my great annoyance in a PBEM.