Correct me if I'm wrong

[vincentz]

Im redoing the techtree in my mod (I use a slightly modified Rise of Mankind Techtree), but thought a lot of the techs where out of place.

So here is VIP techtree V1 part 1 (Neolithic to Antiquity)

Did I make mistakes? How does it look?

I really need all the combined wisdom of the wise and allknowing community, so I hope its ok to post here (moderators?).

Spoiler :

nb. I know alot of the techs (Fishing, Hunting, Stone Tools f.ex.) is alot older, but imagine its Tool Fishing, Organized Hunting and Advanced Stone Tools

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I think that Writing and the Wheel should be swapped. How can you reap the benefits of pastures and quarries without roads?

Just my two pennies worth.

 

[vincentz]

trade will have path which is early slow road (4 movecost) that can connect resources
writing will have removed library but added monument
wheel will have dirt road which is faster road than path (3 movecost)

 

[Timsup2nothin]

In the production line the working of metals technically comes long before casting. Getting a furnace hot enough to refine the ores and just pouring the metal out into rough forms, then hammering them into shape, is much less tech intensive than actually producing a detailed mold that can withstand the heat. The difference between the bronze age and the iron age is pretty much just a question of making hotter furnaces.

 

[vincentz]

In the production line the working of metals technically comes long before casting. Getting a furnace hot enough to refine the ores and just pouring the metal out into rough forms, then hammering them into shape, is much less tech intensive than actually producing a detailed mold that can withstand the heat. The difference between the bronze age and the iron age is pretty much just a question of making hotter furnaces.

I think of metal casting as also using rough forms, not necessarily technically advanced molds.
I Looked casting up, and it says it dates 6000 years back. I think Bronze working and Iron working is also meant as casting. Read about ironworking, that some civ knew about iron, but wasnt able to actually use it untill much later.
I added units/building/other stuff to the techs.

Spoiler :

 

[ksa76]

Nice tech tree for the Ancient and Classical Era!
I would consider
* renaming athletics to gladiator games and move this to the Culture line.
* for the opened slot in the Military line I suggest that you add Ballistics as a new tech and a Ballistae (new military unit) with +3 strength. The ballistae should work as a Catapult, though less effective. Perhaps even utterly useless against citywalls.

 

[vincentz]

Nice tech tree for the Ancient and Classical Era!
I would consider
* renaming athletics to gladiator games and move this to the Culture line.
* for the opened slot in the Military line I suggest that you add Ballistics as a new tech and a Ballistae (new military unit) with +3 strength. The ballistae should work as a Catapult, though less effective. Perhaps even utterly useless against citywalls.

good suggestion. I think I keep Athletics, as apparently it was quite popular in many ancient civs, but move it to the culture "hole".
I then move Siege Warfare one step forward, add Ram unit from Wheel tech and make new tech "Ballistics" with Catapult.

 

[strijder20]

I think that Writing and the Wheel should be swapped. How can you reap the benefits of pastures and quarries without roads?

Just my two pennies worth.

Well, the Incas and the Aztecs didn't have the wheel IIRC.

 

[Quibblesome]

Well, the Incas and the Aztecs didn't have the wheel IIRC.

Pretty sure they did, it was beasts of burden that they lacked. They only had llamas to use as packhorses. Also worth noting that the Incas and Aztecs were kicking around in 1600AD so _much_, _much_ later. Because of that I'm not massively sure about "sacrificial cult" being so early.

 

[vincentz]

the problem with the techtree will always be that some civs were either not around (America), developed later or slowly (Incas/Aztecs), didnt develop at all (Native Americans), or had entirely different paths (some civs went directly from stoneage to iron working).
The civ series techtrees bears the marks of wanting to follow the most state of the art civs at their "golden age" eras. (We can build aqueducts and colosseums but in reality, how many civs actually had those?).

Civ is mostly about a "what if" but trying to be historically plausible.

About the sacrifices, it was actually very difficult to put in the techtree, coz there has been human sacrifices for more than 50.000 years. Ceremonial burial is also rather old, but neither would really be possible without some sort of priests or holymen (priesthood), so its a question : which came first the chicken or the egg
In that context I decided to go for gameplay beats realism. (The sphinx icon is not a Sphinx wonder, but a symbol for imperial cult civic (divine cult).)

 

[stoferb]

Looks pretty good to me. I think IW should come before glass blowing though. Sure glassworking is ancient but it didn't start to get advanced or even important until classical times. In fact I'd move it to late mideval times when glassware in reality started to replace pottery and glass windows became a common sight. Iron working OTOH because of it's crucial impact on everything from warfare to farming started transforming the world well before 1000 BC.

And btw there were only one Colosseum in the real world, which was an exceptionally big amphitheatre in Rome. And since an amphitheatre is basically the same thing as an arena there's no need to have two buildings either like in in the RoM mod.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Well, the Incas and the Aztecs didn't have the wheel IIRC.

I was thinking more in game terms, but you might have a point. I'm not much for history, so I'll have to take your word for it.

 

[vincentz]

Looks pretty good to me. I think IW should come before glass blowing though. Sure glassworking is ancient but it didn't start to get advanced or even important until classical times. In fact I'd move it to late mideval times when glassware in reality started to replace pottery and glass windows became a common sight. Iron working OTOH because of it's crucial impact on everything from warfare to farming started transforming the world well before 1000 BC.

And btw there were only one Colosseum in the real world, which was an exceptionally big amphitheatre in Rome. And since an amphitheatre is basically the same thing as an arena there's no need to have two buildings either like in in the RoM mod.

Good point. The reason why I put something between iron and bronze working, was to make the bronze age a little bit longer, but it can also be a pain in the donkey to not have bronze closeby gameplaywise. And since glass working is ancient, glass blowing came later.(from Wiki : Glassblowing is a glass forming technique which was invented by the Phoenicians around 50 BC)

Regarding the colosseum. Im gonna rename it to Arena, and maybe add a Colosseum world wonder later. That way it also have a purpose when building it in modern times (Soccer/Football/Cricket/Baseball etc stadiums)

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And since an amphitheatre is basically the same thing as an arena there's no need to have two buildings either like in in the RoM mod.

Strictly from observing the real world...many large cities have an 'arena' and an 'amphitheater' and sometimes more than one of each. A handy to me example, Los Angeles. Arenas; Staples Center, the Forum in Inglewood, the Pond in Anaheim, probably more I'm forgetting. Amphitheaters; Dodger Stadium, the Colosseum, Rose Bowl, Anaheim Stadium, again probably more I'm forgetting.

 

[vincentz]

Strictly from observing the real world...many large cities have an 'arena' and an 'amphitheater' and sometimes more than one of each. A handy to me example, Los Angeles. Arenas; Staples Center, the Forum in Inglewood, the Pond in Anaheim, probably more I'm forgetting. Amphitheaters; Dodger Stadium, the Colosseum, Rose Bowl, Anaheim Stadium, again probably more I'm forgetting.

Most cities have more than one market or grocer too
I think 1 representation : Arena, will cover both ancient and modern versions without being to culture specific as Colosseums tend to be. Another alternative is Amphitheaters AND Arenas, but Amphitheaters might be covered by Theatres.
Another alternative is multible building option. IE it is possible to build 3 Arenas in the same city. Might be worth considering (together with multibe markets/grocers etc), and then just downscale them. (My mod have quite few buildings compared to the amount of techs and lenght of gamespeeds, which could either be balanced by increasing buildingcosts or the beforementioned)

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Most cities have more than one market or grocer too

Good point. I usually think of those as something like a 'market district'. Back at Los Angeles, there are hundreds (thousands?) of grocery stores, but the warehouses for every market chain are contained in a few square blocks downtown. Most food in the entire metropolitan area passes through those blocks, so I always think of that when one of my cities is building a 'grocer'.

 

[stoferb]

To me it seems that an amphitheatre is simply a specific shape for an arena, while an arena theoretically could be designed in any number of ways.