COTM 02 First Spoiler: End Of Ancient age

[rrau]

open

goal: domination victory

4000bc after reading pregame discussions, I decide to go SE with settler and mine at starting location (in hindsight should have scouted with worker)

3950bc settle amsterdam > curragh :writing at min for MM

3550bc worker finishes mining and roading and moves 1nw and finds we are on peninsula with no visible bonuses

2450 1st curragh north shore - see a silk; increase research to max for writing in 26

3250 found what appears to be northern tip of our landmass, 2nd curragh due next turn

3150 found landmass to ???? of ours and they have a visible ????

3000 bc contact civ1 and trade pottery &9g for BW; ibt we are number 8 in size according to Pliny

2900 OOPS - civil disorder in amsterdam; meet civ2 and trade pottery + CB for Masonry +10g; trade civ1 Masonry for BW + 10g

2630bc meet civ3 and trade CB for 10g

2550 settle Rotterdam - we've circumnavigated our landmass

2350 bc trade civ3 masonry for wheel; civ1's keeping monopoly on WC - won't trade for wheel plus 73g (no Horses)

2230bc have learned writing, will start on MM

2070 meet civ4 and trade writing for WC + Mysticism; trade civ2 mysticism for 35g; no trades with civ1 or civ3 as both are broke with no techs or workers

1910 bc abandoned amsterdam and settle The Hague in it's spot (by a settler built that turn)

1650bc trade civ1 writing for IW (NO IRON!!!!!!!!!)

1600bc 1st suicide carraugh sank

1475 Civ1 demanded gold from us - yeah right! - no one knows MM at this point. Civ1 DoW on us

1175 peace with civ1: we give MM which civ4 knows and receive 56g

1050 settle utrecht

800bc learned CoL start Philosophy in 8; trade civ3 writing for math; civ4 learned philosophy and took construction as their free tech - trade 145g for HBR; change research to lit at max

730 bc 1st elite from barbs

190 bc learn currency and enter MA (still don't know monarchy or republic)


Plan for MA:

Well, while having some difficulty with resource location we're currently gearing up for war to secure more land. Civ 1 built SoZ and are close by and just eager to join our empire, and have 2 or 3 lux's so plan to get knights and MI and go to war

Edited Minimap at end of AA:

 

[dojoboy]

Just curious how the predator level players feel the AI bonuses have affected their games so far? To me, unless we start on a landmass w/ at least two other civs, these bonuses for AI really don't seem to present a greater challenge. IMHO. Granted, I didn't choose the predator save. Curious as to how others feel.

 

[Dan-Beersheba]

This is too hard.

 

[Aeson]

Just curious how the predator level players feel the AI bonuses have affected their games so far?

It's a bit outside the scope of this thread to discuss. Before playing the game I felt the bonus would actually help the player in most regards. The exception would be on a very crowded map. Monarch AI's are too slow to improve terrain and build up population for capturing.

 

[dmanakho]

Open class,

Well, I decided not to gamble going west and just moved a settler to the BG and settled there...
1st two builds were curraghs then warrior.
Very soon I knew I was on island.
Few days ago I opened a thread about whether civilization is a bad example because it makes wars necessity.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92092

Well, I decided, I will keep my small island and will never ever start a war.
My curraghs were lucky. I met all civilization and explored an entire map way back in Ancient age… I was able to trade like crazy and actually I was the 1st civilization to enter MA while still in 100+BCs
Well, That’s all folks… I have my small island, I am looking forward for future and planning to bit AIs if not with space race but with Diplomatic victory…

 

[SirPleb]

(predator)

Opening Moves

As described earlier in this thread I began by following a trail of crumbs to settle Amsterdam in 3700BC on the central hill. My worker stopped along the way in 3800BC to chop the southwest of the 3 silks forests.

Amsterdam the Settler/Worker Factory

A four turn warrior+settler factory would be possible with Amsterdam on the central hills. At size 4.5 Amsterdam could be working the irrigated cattle and 3 mined BGs to produce 8s. Growth to size 5 would add 2s from a forest and could produce a warrior in one turn. The next 3 turns could produce 9s, 11s(with forest at growth time) and 10s respectively, to build a settler in 3 turns and start the cycle over again at size 4.5.

The location was even good enough for a two turn warrior+worker factory. Such a factory starts each cycle as above with a warrior from size 4.5, then at size 5 must work four mined BGs and the cattle to produce a worker in a single turn and then start a new cycle.

Amsterdam began by building a granary, completing that in 2900BC two turns before growing to size 4. It then built two warriors to explore and to handle barbarians if any were around, and then built a settler, completing that in 2510BC.

To maximize use of the available fresh water (for its +1 food/turn) I decided to settle two towns north of Amsterdam on the river, one on each coast. The first settler went to one of those locations to found Rotterdam and it immediately began producing curraghs. By this time it was already clear that using our seafaring trait (for coastal bonuses and for faster exploration of the world) would be important.

After producing that first settler I decided to focus on improving Amsterdam to a full blown warrior+settler pump. That meant improving a lot of tiles. So my next production was five workers in a row, each taking two turns to build, finishing the last one in 2110BC.

Next I started another settler - by the time that one completed in four turns I'd be exactly ready to start a four turn warrior+settler cycle. My start region looked like this four turns later in 1950BC:

The sixth worker isn't visible above, he's clearing the silk forest the settler is passing through.

Amsterdam then just pumped warrior/settler pairs, occasionally flipping to a warrior/worker pair. And occasionally another city would throw in a settler.

Research

I researched at the maximum pace I could afford through Writing (31 turns), Code Of Laws (18) and Philosophy (7). I was first to Philosophy, got Republic as a free tech, and revolted immediately. I got a five turn revolution and became a Republic in 1350BC.

After that I researched Literature so that I could build some libraries and got it in 5 turns.

I then turned off research for a while. I'd traded for all other required Ancient techs except Polytheism, Currency, and Construction. I'd be needing funds in the treasury eventually and this seemed a good time to build it up a bit, waiting for the other Civs to help a bit with research and building some libraries in the meantime.

I traded for Polytheism, then started research again to learn Currency and Construction, entering the Middle Ages at 590BC.

QSC Status

At 1000BC I had:
12 towns
2 settlers
9 native workers
4 warriors
1 galley
3 curraghs
1 granary, 1 temple, 2 harbors
385g in treasury
all ancient tech except Currency, Construction, Monarchy
claimed the iron and horse islands

Miscellaneous

It has been a peaceful world so far. I haven't been involved in any warfare and don't know of any fighting elsewhere.

Barbarians have been just a minor nuisance. I've lost a couple of warriors to them but nothing else.

I'm not making any attempt to build any wonder so far.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Predator

Let me preface this post by saying that I am relatively new to the site, but I have been playing Civilization since the day Civ 1 came out. I also don't wish to appear beligerent, but nevertheless...

I'm really happy that so many people decided to continue moving after the initial move onto the hill (spotting the forest silks beyond). But moving onto the far hill (six East) when seeing the non-bonus grassland on the river, makes absolutely no sense to me. Here’s a few screenshots:

Could someone please explain the logic to me in why you would move (from the central mountain in the first screenshot) two moves west, one northwest? The best move seems to be west, one southwest. I would love to hear an alternative logic, because I am highly suspicious of such a move at the moment.

Be that as it may, I founded on the SE BG from the start and had this at the end of the QSC:

4 workers, 5 warriors, 1 spear
All techs except Monarchy and Construction
661g
16 pop
6 cities
2 granaries
1 barracks
Silk hooked up.
Making 25gpt on 10% science
2 settlers due in 2 turns.

I switched to Republic in 1350 BC (three-turn anarchy), and I entered the MA in 730 BC.

 

[SirPleb]

Could someone please explain the logic to me in why you would move (from the central mountain in the first screenshot) two moves
west, one northwest? The best move seems to be west, one southwest.

In either case we'll start by moving west, taking us to the last screenshot in your post.

At that point I now see four good reasons for going west as the next step instead of SW:

1) Moving SW and settling there will block the tile S of the current position from ever being settled. We don't know yet but that may be an important location to settle later on - the three tiles NW of it and the one tile SW are all mountains and can't be settled, this may be the best choice for a coastal town in this region. This was enough for me when I played it, I didn't even think of the following reasons at the time, I just eliminated the move SW based on this and therefore went west as the only remaining choice.

2) A city founded SW of the current position will definitely have some bad tiles in its borders. It will have 3 mountains and 3 coastal tiles, and it can't build a harbor to use those coastal tiles properly. There's little chance of it having any good tiles we haven't seen yet - it will get just 4 unseen tiles, one of which is coastal and two are forest.

3) A city founded W of the current position will have 8 so far unseen tiles - not a bad chance of some more good stuff.

4) The land may continue a fair bit westward, we don't know. We do know that there's almost nothing to the east. Moving further west improves the chance of a well centered palace.

After moving west (for any or all of the reasons above), next turn a new decision presents itself - is it better to settle there or move to the hills?

 

[DaveMcW]

@DaveMcW: I thought about you republic slingshot too, but definetely wanted to get map making soon, so I didn't. Do you think it payed off in this game? Do you think rebublic pays off as a government when having 5 or 6 cities?

No to Map Making, yes to Republic!

Getting Map Making early gave no advantage in this game. We already had curraghs that were more powerful than other civs' galleys (3 movement, increased suicide survival). Galleys and the Great Lighthouse would be useful eventually, but by the time I was ready to build them I could just trade for Map Making.

Republic can pay off with any number of cities. The important part is to road every tile. My unit upkeep got very bad very fast, but my income increased even faster.

 

[Repeat Offender]

SirPleb you once again astound me with your knowledge and ability to play this game. I am an utter newb. =P

 

[Cu Chulainn]

Open

This is my first GOTM and it has also been one of the best games of civ I have ever played. I opened on the SE square, Seeing that I had my own continent I took the CoL-->Phil route to a quick Republic with a mere 4 towns up, then grabbed mapmaking and dropped the tech pace to 10% on Lit so I could rush my improvements.

Everything was dandy until an imminent wonder cascade threatened to take the lighthouse and waste my 250+ shields. Booked it to Lit, grabbed the GL, and cancelled my plans of expanding north, for now. Decided that I would make the Dutch Republic a Utopia of learning and wealth making an attempt at as early a diplo as possible. Hopped my palace to the center to create as good an empire as I've had in a long time.

The turn after Lit came in Civ3 demanded it of me and declared war when I calmly explained that he had not the infrastructure to threaten my cities however unguarded they may be. I bought Civ2 into the war, and then Civ's 1 and 4 as they became necessary. I have kept the war going, reenlisting my allys whenever peace is declared. I have yet to see even a semblance of weariness from my people. I have only 3 warriors an archer and a pair of horsemen to defend myself but they are proving uneccesary.

Brokering techs I have reached the MA at about 300BC without interference and have built almost every improvement in my high production towns. Thanks to the constant warring up north I have managed to secure the entire starting continent and the two resource islands and have 2 other colonies in stategically usefull locations.

Because I have the GL I will be taking the lower tree in the MA hoping to get a few freebies before I hit Education.

 

[Singularity]

Predator

Could someone please explain the logic to me in why you would move (from the central mountain in the first screenshot) two moves west, one northwest? The best move seems to be west, one southwest. I would love to hear an alternative logic, because I am highly suspicious of such a move at the moment.

@BradleyFeanor

edit: just realized you moved SE of start. I thought those two screens where from your game start.

Just to add a little bit of my own incentivement to SirPlebs list. You see a river going NW - SE. The SE part you know where ends, at the BG between the mountains. The NW part however seem to stretch on northwards. For how long? 1 tile or 10? What's the benefits/drawbacks of settling in the middle of a riverstretch with two wasted moves with the settler and 3 with the worker and a tail end settlement at the end of the river with high corruption at the other end of the river? Is it more important to get a quick coastal capitol than several coastal inner core cities? Yes, you get a Curragh earlier, but you will loose huge ammount of gold for every turn from the other end of the river. And you will actually get fewer curraghs in the medium term because of the known unhospitable mountain terrain compared to 2-3 early coastal cities based from a more centralized location of your capitol. The cattle was nice and all that, but above all I was concerned to harvest as many of the river squares at full potential as early as possible.

 

[Darkness]

Just curious how the predator level players feel the AI bonuses have affected their games so far? To me, unless we start on a landmass w/ at least two other civs, these bonuses for AI really don't seem to present a greater challenge. IMHO. Granted, I didn't choose the predator save. Curious as to how others feel.

A bit hard to say, really...

The AIs seemed to really focus on Great Wonders in my game. It almost seems as if they all set the city built by their extra starting settler to wonder productions, because they all had pretty decent expansion rates, as well as quite early completion dates for their wonders (saw 4 of them completed before 1000BC)...

 

[klarius]

I'm not making any attempt to build any wonder so far.

As usual brilliantly played.
But one question: why you don't attempt to get the Great Lighthouse?
Or formulated differently: What is Rotterdam doing after it got it's library.

 

[Aeson]

Predator

3600BC I first settled on the tile S of the Cattle. Started Writing at a 50 turn pace.

2850BC Granary finished, and that set up my 4 turn Settler/ 2 turn Worker factory.

2590BC Second city was founded on the inside of the bend at the river mouth. Started a Curragh there.

2430BC City 3 was founded at the head of the river. I decided founding the city on the river was more important than on the coast. Worker 2 completed this turn as well.

2190BC City 4 was founded 221 of the capitol. Worker 3 finished. Warrior 1 has been exploring for a couple turns. First Curragh was out 3 turns ago.

1950BC City 5 was founded 996 of the capitol. Worker 4 finished. I'm pretty sure we're on an island at this point. Warrior 2 has been covering some garrison duty for a few turns. Curragh 2 has been out for 3 turns.

1790BC Worker 5 completed.

1675BC City 6 was founded on the Hill NW of the lake. Elite Warrior 1 has successfully defended against some 'wandering' Barbs who always attack NW onto mountains and has now spotted the barb encampment. Curragh 3 has been out for several turns. City 2 is building the Collosus. Dumb plan #1 commencing!

1625BC City 7 was founded SE of the starting location. Worker 6 finished. Warrior 1 destroys a barb camp.

1575BC Writing completes. Code of Laws started at 70% (14 turns). City 2 thinks better on their build and switches to a Granary (5 more turns). Curragh 2 sinks. Curragh 4 and 5 are out now to take it's place.

1550BC City 8 was founded 4441 of the Capitol. City 2 is again building the Collosus instead of a Granary.

1475BC Worker 7 (first not from the Capitol) finished.

1450BC City 9 was founded 22333 of the Capitol.

1400BC City 10 was founded S of the Lake.

1350BC City 11 was founded on the Hill SE of the Mountain range near the starting location. Up to 10 Workers, 4 Warriors, 2 Barracks, and 5 Curraghs now.

1300BC CoL finishes. Philosophy started at 90% (5 turns).

1200BC City 12 was founded on the N point Oasis.

1175BC Philosophy finishes. Republic taken as free tech. Anarchy (3 turns). Map Making started at 0%.

1100BC In a Republic. Map Making at 70% (5 turns).

1025BC City 13 founded NE of the Tundra Game.

1000BC

13 Cities
33 Pop
14 Workers
10 Warriors
7 Curraghs
2 Barracks
1 Granary

916g
1 turn left on Map Making.
All other Ancient techs except Currency, Literature, and Monarchy
6 turns left on Collosus.

Other notables until the Middle Ages:

875BC Collosus finished. No idea why I didn't switch to the Lighthouse.

825BC Literature finished. Currency 80% (6 turns). All but 2 Warriors disbanded for shields to save cash. Dumb plan #2 commencing!

800BC City 14 founded.

730BC City 15 founded.

710BC City 16 founded. Currency finishes. Feudalism 80% (9 turns).

(1000BC map)

 

[Megalou]

I will be a no-show this time.

I did not scout with the worker but got to work on the starting tile straight away (road) and moved the settler to the bonus grassland. While this allowed me to reach the republic slingshot in 1450 BC, it gave me problems with enough good core cities eventually. Why, oh why didn't I flip the palace? It's such an obvious thing to do with the cow boosting growth for a well-placed capital-to-be. That's just me, looking for the subtleties but missing the obvious.

Like DaveMcW says, trading for Map Making was easy. I got it for Code of Laws + 70g. Overall, the republic slingshot gave a very good research/trading position. I was able to save 1452 gold before I entered the middle ages in 610 BC. To answer somebody elses question, republic government worked well for me. In 670 BC my total military was down to 1 regular warrior which is really no big deal when you have an island to yourself. (I have a feeling the barbarians are slightly more "defensive" in Conquests.) So the military cost was small for a long time. By the time I entered the middle ages I had started building vet horsemen as well as settlers of course.

This review may not sound too bad, but later decisions together with the neglected palace jump makes me look at a late domination/conquest victory. Among other things I decided to play a completely honest game this time - no broken deals - and that made a big difference at one point. So I will not pursue this. The northern summers are just too short! Good luck to everyone!

 

[Offa]

I've given up on this. Congratulations to the guys who moved the settler. Looking back on it I remember that having moved my worker onto the hill I saw flecks of blue beyond the mountain but mistakenly thought it was sea. If only I had looked a bit closer.

I had a very quick replay moving the settler to next to the cow and very easily got to 12 towns, 3 settlers on the go, 11 native workers and about 12 warriors and 3 curraghs ( another 2 or 3 sank) in 1000bc. I had all AA techs bar currency (due in 7) construction and monarchy, although this could be bettered as I duplicated a lot of AI research. I set up the cow capital as a 4 turn warrior + settler factory, but didn't manage it at all carefully. I was mostly just horrified at how I could easily achieve an empire more than double in size to the one I actually managed. In fact as republic is achieved pre 1500bc the settler factory only operates for a short time in despotism.

Really I can't think of anything as game changing as the decision to move the settler at the start, and I can see now that it was the correct thing to do, especially as you could be fairly sure in this case that there were no nearby AI. I must try this more. Probably next time I will end up running straight into a stack of AI troops before I have founded the capital, and will acheive a red ambulance award for a 3600bc loss with a zero score.

 

[Dianthus]

I can see your point of view Offa, if all you care about is score. I'm finding this game really fun, and the score is definitely secondary. It looks like my tech pace is similar to those that moved the settler. It's now just a question of if I can get enough production up and running to blitz the AI on reaching cavalry.

 

[Aeson]

While the Settler move was a pretty big deal, I think there are more important decisions to make. I know I could have done better overall building on the penninsula and making other decisions right later in the game.

 

[Detlef Richter]

Don't worry Offa. It's a 50:50 decision. It can be good but it can also be wrong.
I've sayed Greece win the Euro2004 but the risc to bet was too high for me.
Wrong decision, it was a 100:1, so if i bet 100€ i earn 10.000€.