COTM 10: Final Spoiler

[grahamiam]

Open, playing a no military variant (units allowed to be built are workers, settlers, scouts, and ships(prefer transports or non-military types))

The IA was very smooth sailing for me, however, research was slow and I made a couple of boneheaded moves with respect to wonders.

Tech progression as follows:
940AD: Medicine (self research), Steam (Russia)
1020AD: Industrialization (self research)
1110AD: Electricity (self)
1170AD: Corporation (self)
1180AD: Democracy (trade)
1190AD: Mil Tradition (trade)
1250AD: Steel (self)
1290AD: Replaceable Parts (self)
1330AD: Refining (self)
1355AD: Sci Method (self)
1390AD: Free Artistry (trade)
1395AD: Combustion (self)
1430AD: Mass Production (self)
1450AD: Economics (trade)
1465AD: Sanitation (trade)
1475AD: AT (self)
1515AD: Electronics (self)
1540AD: MT (self), Flight (trade)
1595AD: Fission (self)
Finished research.

Iron was a major problem for me in this game as the starting territory did not have any. However, I did notice that the other continent had many sources and the Celts were rather feisty. Therefore, I gifted a lot of techs to the Celts, while keeping Portugal poor, hoping the Celts would become large enough to have excess resources to sell to me. I wasn’t able to get iron and coal till late (1455AD), however, I did have iron earlier and was able to build some factories.

For wonders, I built US in Karakorum in 1345AD, hoping to end any possible cascades for ToE. However, that strategy failed as I waited too long in building the ToE (trying to get fission for free) and lost it to the Celts in 1460AD. I had been gifting heavily to allow the AI’s to keep up in research and it payed off a bit as I was able to buy flight. However, since it cost me ToE and those 2 techs, it was not well executed. Instead, Ta-Tu built Smith’s (1475AD). Karakorum builds UN in 1610AD (using Hoover’s as a prebuild) and I win the UN vote:

And my army at the end (most native workers had been joined by then)

 

[ionimplant]

Predator, barbs fixed, going for a high-scoring, early 20k
Overall 20k Strategy
My plan was to not only focus on getting wonders built in my 20k city, but to build the wonders with the lowest shield cost/culture per turn (CPT) ratio as early as possible in the game. I would then come back to build the less efficient wonders. This strategy of building culturally efficient wonders was particularly important given the relatively low shield output of my 20k city. A great example of a culturally efficient wonder is Shakespeare’s Theatre: at 56.25, its cost/cpt value blows away all the other wonders of the MAs. It also functions as a hospital. Therefore, I wanted it to be the first MA wonder I built.

excellent analysis!!! i wish i had read this before i finish my cotm11 today. it deifinitely would help.

 

[civ_steve]

Great write-up bradleyfeanor! Thanks for the insights into your approach. I'm not totally convinced that a high-score 20K will beat a good focused 20K game, but you've certainly turned in a great result!

I've only really tried milking once (Egypt, about a year ago); I use the shift-A approach for my workers; once most everything has been done, they just sit in cities until pollution occurs; then they automatically hop out and clean it up. This is great; bad part is the displaced citizen! I really, really wished the option existed to tell the governor 'leave the citizen in the tile'. When I turned the governor on, he would invariably mess up my Entertainer specialists and my cities would have 3 or 4 Unhappy people. Turning him off means a displaced citizen per pollution occurance, and eventual starvation. Assuming the pop is maxed out, you could leave the governor off, automate the Workers (shift-A for sure; a straight 'a' means those workers will start mining your irrigated tiles) and check for food loss every few turns or so.

With 10 minutes to go, you did what you had to do.

grahamiam: I don't think I'd have the nerves to play that type of game! Congratulations!

 

[Dynamic]

Great game Bradleyfeanor! And great post.
As you extracted some experience from my 100K post as I do the same from yours. Thank you!

 

[chunkymonkey]

Open

The plan for the Industrial Ages is to keep learning techs at a 4 turn rate, whilst getting up to the domination limit as soon as possible. Celtic lands should complete me.

Celtic War: 1010AD - 1220AD

The Celts were definitely the most worthy foe I face in this game due to them having all resources, and the pyramids. So I ask the Vikings to help me. During the proceeds I get four more cavalry armies and also finish off the city states of China and Japan.

After learning Steam Power, I grant Korea access to the Industrial Ages. They learn Nationalism but refuse to trade it with me. So I destroy them. After capturing Entremont I know the Celts are finished. My 5 cavalry armies make short work of them.

Mopping up: 1220AD - 1655AD

After putting the Portuguese out of their misery, it was down to me and Ragnar. And I think he knows to play nice. Enter the Modern Ages in 1415AD with a bit of help from the Theory of Evolution.

Ragnar declares in 1475 because he wants iron. I swat away the incurring troops, but decide not to raze Scandinavia since they could still be useful with science.

Learning the first few modern age techs at the 4 turn rate was difficult, and I needed to employ a vast army of scientists and taxmen (to maintain my 100% science budget). However once I had the Internet, research was a formality. I needed to abandon some cities here and there to prevent a domination victory. I gift Raganar the entire Industrial age, as well as Rocketry and Space Flight, hoping he'll research one of the two SS part techs for me. He doesn't. I've had to research my entire way to victory since the beginning of the Middle Ages, the AI were utterly useless.

Eventualy launch my spaceship in 1655AD...

Firaxis - 7200
Jason - 8653

 

[Paul#42]

Open, playing a no military variant (units allowed to be built are workers, settlers, scouts, and ships(prefer transports or non-military types))

How did you cope with the Barb Hordes and the aggressive Russians?!? Impressive!!

 

[grahamiam]

How did you cope with the Barb Hordes and the aggressive Russians?!? Impressive!!

i let them vaporize into towns. really hammered my capitol at the start of the MA (lost 4 citizens and ~400g). also, the chinese and russians did a good job clearing out the remaining barb camps.

russians never attacked, only the chinese (see spoiler #2). basically, i gifted techs and luxes to make sure i didn't get too far ahead. furs were always gifted to china, japan/korea, and russia while i had them. I also sold spices to Russia as well as saltpeter (gifted it when they couldn't offer a decent lump of gold). avoiding hefty gpt payments from other civs so they don't attack you when they go bankrupt was very important.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I'm not totally convinced that a high-score 20K will beat a good focused 20K game...

Me either. In fact, I don't mind saying that going for high score (65.9% of the land, etc.) definitely will not pay off. I think I misstated myself in the first spoiler thread and gave the wrong impression on my views.

What I do believe, is that there is occasionally a C3C game where an aggressive, early military approach will help the 20k city more than a passive, grow-the-city-to-12-early-at-all-costs approach, even if the 20k city sacrifices growth at the beginning and generates less shields than other players. There are several ways the aggressive 20k civ can get an edge on the passive civ with a higher production 20k city: 1) due to warfare, the aggressive civ gets an extra ancient age wonder, 2) they get a couple of extra MA wonders, and 3) they are able to build the better cost/culture wonders in the late MA before the marginal ones that are available early. In some games, a passive civ can’t take that inverse wonder-building approach without losing a wonder to an AI.

And since the aggressive civ would have an early military, it should be able to go on to get a good score and still win the 20k race. Or at least I think/hope that's the case! But it will take a better player than me to win the 20k race against heated competition and get the gold while doing it. I would love to see it happen though!

I think a map which favors an aggressive civ winning 20k yet still getting a high score would have the following characteristics.
1) AIs need to be relatively close to the player. If they are too far away then it would be very difficult to hurt their growth, research and wonder-building abilities.
2) Ability to build fast military units early (horse availability), for the same reason as above.
3) The AIs can't be too weak or too strong. If they are weak (like regent or below), then a player that focuses entirely on the 20k city at the beginning can still crush the AIs later, and thus get a better date than an aggressive player because they built the same wonders but a bit earlier. Also, if the AIs are too strong (Demigod and higher), then it seems to require too many sacrifices in the 20k city to go for a high score yet still get the earliest 20k against focused competition. I think that makes Monarch and Emperor the most appealing levels for a high-scoring, earliest-win 20k.
4) There have to be no shield-powerhouse locations for the 20k city in the starting area. If there is such a shield-rich location, then growing the city to population 12 early at all costs is probably going to be the best strategy. Also, a shield powerhouse takes away the benefit of the inverse wonder building strategy that an aggressive 20k civ can use in the middle ages (Research can’t get far enough ahead of the 20k city’s shield production to allow better wonders than the passive 20k city can build).

At least, those are my thoughts on the matter. I may be wrong on every point!

Edit: To everyone who gave me tips on worker automation for those last-second-submission time crunches, thanks! I'm still afraid to use them though, even in a pinch. The last time I tried, my entire workforce went running off to build mines in the remote mountains and tundra. :shakehead

 

[Jove]

Arrrr, 100k victory in...1766. I decided to experiment with Feudalism this time around. I saw all those floodplains and thought it just might work. So I took Construction as my free tech, entering the MA in 410. There were barb uprisings everywhere, and my workers, my units, my gold, it all got gobbled up by the war with the barbs. The RNG was hard on me... Anyway, I became Feudal Lord in 150 AD, and from there I might as well have been wearing cement shoes. Feudalism just didn't work for growth. I took the Russians to 1 city, used the great wall trick to get into China later. I underestimated how many riders they would have, and thought this was going to be a disaster and the end of my game. (They'd been allies against Russia and marched everything But riders through my land.) Instead I got very lucky. The war started in 670, by 720 I had 3 armies and was able to turn the tide and absorb China. From there it was basically turn the crank, the Koreans were taken next, then the Japanese. It all seemed way too late though, not being able to just purchase units, especially settlers, seemed a major handicap. Research was also slow, I didn't get communism until 1280, with an 8 turn anarchy! Communism was very powerful, however, after already being a Feudalist for so long, my population was badly whipped and unhappy. I did the best I could with it.
On the other continent the Celts were taking all the land, leaving only the Vikings alone. I just let them, delaying the war with them until my continent was filled up. I would have much rather taken them on sooner, but my military was wimpy as usual and I knew I was way behind in the culture race. I had a ROP, so I figured I'd just ship units over a few at a time with the ships I had. A strange occurrence that never happened to me before: a privateer appeared out of nowhere and sank a galleon, sending an army to Davey Jones! I've never seen a privateer make a difference in a game. Nice shot, AI.
It didn't stop there though. I knew that the AI wouldn't attack armies, and therefore used them as cover for my big attack stack outside their capitol. Well, I didn't realize that they'd fire cannons at armies, and if they succeed in taking it below a certain level, they'll attack. Surprise! The Celts were Fascist by now, had a tremendous number of cavalry, wiped out every unit I had on their continent, took back their capitol, and celebrated I suppose. Never would have happened if that Privateer hadn't sank an army. So. It became another one of those farcical wars where I draft like crazy, disband to build ships, and ship over as many conscripts as possible. Y'know, take the beachhead and claw through the land. My original stack was destroyed in 1420. It wasn't until 1555 that I re-took Entremont. Fortunately techs were frozen, replaceable parts didn't come out until 1620, so it was Cavalry vs. Riflemen forever. Did I mention I was building culure as fast as possible this whole time? Sheesh! What a game.
It was a lot of fun. I haven't posted all month, sorry, this game was so time-consuming I didn't have time. I even stayed up all night at the end to finish- normal civ-fanatic behavior I suppose. I plan to take a close look at all the threads later for lessons. And look at the results. My last 100k game, Klarius beat me by 60 years. This time, Dynamic bests me by 600 or so. That means Dynamic is a whole order of magnitude more competitive, right? Congratulations!
If it isn't already obvious, the main lesson I learned was to save Feudalism for a religious Civ, and if used at all, only bounce in and out of it, don't dwell in it. Forced labor just doesn't work on a mass scale too early in the game, with too small an empire, not for 100k. I can't imagine it being good for other VCs either. I dunno. I'll look for some commentaries on this gov't, it doesn't seem particularly useful to me anymore.

 

[Megalou]

Interesting thoughts, bradleyfeanor. You have a great feeling for the details. I'm sorry to have to add a rather sad point about the automated workers. If they clean up pollution for us, the city that was afflicted by the pollution will not automatically reassign a worker to the cleaned up tile, unless the city starves, in which case the workers might be reshuffled, as you surely know.

So the irony is that even though the tiles are cleaned by the automated workers, you might as well have left them dirty! This is of course unless you manually reassign the workers, but can you remember which cities were polluted after the workers have swished past them? That's almost as much trouble as manually moving the workers around in stacks. Sorry to be the bearer of ill tidings. Can anyone resolve this practical matter?

@Jove,
Oh my, your game and mine show some great similarities. We both put up with unbelievable drudgery, and we both suffered from misfortunes. Only maybe you suffered from a few slightly smaller ones while I made the big blunder stumbling over the domination limit.

As for playing time, I'm sure I "triumphed". To be sure of success here, I left the computer running while away on more than one occasion.

 

[DaveMcW]

Good game, bradleyfeanor

It looks like everyone has been obsessed with Jason score recently, so there aren't many examples of really focused 20k games.

Here are a couple though:
bed_head7 1620AD in COTM5 (regent)
DaveMcW 1675AD in COTM3 (demigod)

 

[bradleyfeanor]

It looks like everyone has been obsessed with Jason score recently, so there aren't many examples of really focused 20k games.

Here are a couple though:
bed_head7 1620AD in COTM5 (regent)
DaveMcW 1675AD in COTM3 (demigod)

Hi Dave , it's good to see you back! There has indeed been an excessive amout of discussion about scoring as of late. However, in this case I am more interested in the challenge: I think scoring high yet beating all competition on 20k victory date would be quite an achievement. So, my question would be whether you think my points above are correct or incorrect?

I remember both the games you mentioned, but I went back for a refresher. Unfortunately, there was some info I wanted missing in the spoilers (like shields per turn in the 20k city, the entire culture build order, etc.). Some was there, like it showed you built both Shakespeare and Newton relatively early. As I recall from when I played those games (which was quite a while back), I didn't think an aggressive strategy (or an earlier aggressive strategy in the case of your game) could beat either of those focused 20k victories. However, yours was demigod level and Bed_head's was regent. Being aggressive certainly wouldn't have been useful in Bed_head's, and, as far as reaching the dom limit, it didn't seem it could happen early enough in yours while still managing the 20k city. So, do you think an aggressive strategy could pay off in a Monarch game with the characteristics I listed in my earlier post, or no?

As for playing time, I'm sure I "triumphed". To be sure of success here, I left the computer running while away on more than one occasion.

To Megalou: Are you positive on that? As I recall my game was over 70 hours, even though I rushed through the last few hundred years.

 

[Dynamic]

If it isn't already obvious, the main lesson I learned was to save Feudalism for a religious Civ, and if used at all, only bounce in and out of it, don't dwell in it. Forced labor just doesn't work on a mass scale too early in the game, with too small an empire, not for 100k. I can't imagine it being good for other VCs either. I dunno. I'll look for some commentaries on this gov't, it doesn't seem particularly useful to me anymore.

Thanks for congrats, but it's too early, lets wait for results.
You switched to Feudalism too early. This government is not good for producing settlers for high amount of cities for 100K game because rushing settlers in high corrupt cities is very problematic. I switched to Feudalism only when have 210 cities on my home continent and last 10 settlers went to its places. And I had enough number of workers so when I switched to Feudalism I need only culture rushing. The same thing with the war. I reached Domination limit in the same time when started revolt.

 

[Dynamic]

To Bradleyfeanor:

Your thoughts are logical but I can't judge it because never play 20K.
I decided to play 20K (in the future) in war stile one day before you post your COTM10 letter and was very surprised when read the same strategy from you.

 

[Megalou]

To Megalou: Are you positive on that? As I recall my game was over 70 hours, even though I rushed through the last few hundred years.

Not bad, but I was over four score hours.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Not bad, but I was over four score hours.

224 hours for me. Frankly, I fall asleep at the computer while playing. The scary thing about this particular game, though, was that I will have actually been playing most of that time. Until about 1500ad, I micromanaged every tile in every city on every turn. I didn't do me much good, but MM is an addiction...

 

[Megalou]

Amazing, PaperBeetle. Only a true fanatic would do that. I can boast about "reversed" micromanage in that I made sure I worked polluted tiles (red shields) after volcanic eruptions for the sake of happy citizens. But once production became less and less important, I quit MM unless some wonder was at hand.

 

[grs]

Good game, bradleyfeanor

It looks like everyone has been obsessed with Jason score recently, so there aren't many examples of really focused 20k games.

Here are a couple though:
bed_head7 1620AD in COTM5 (regent)
DaveMcW 1675AD in COTM3 (demigod)

And not to forget the fabulous 1772AD Cultural 20k Victory of grs in COTM4

 

[grs]

I did a quite unfocussed 20k OCC game. I won in 1916AD, being close to destruction around 1800AD, when my neighbours the Russians declared on me. Since the Chinese already reduced them to a few cities in an earlier war, I could hold out, sign up the Chinese against Russia again, who did me the favour on killing Russia very fast.

Karakorum at 1916AD:

Wonders and Improvements:
Palace 3900BC
Temple 3050BC
The Oracle 1475BC
Mausoleum of Mausollos 950BC
Library 775BC
The Great Library 170BC
Colosseum 10BC
Cathedral 260AD
Sistine Chapel 560AD
University 670AD
JS Bach's Cathedral 980AD
Shakespeare's Theatre 1270AD
Intelligence Agengcy 1768AD

 

[Andronicus]

Tardy write up of my first COTM attempt
Going for conquest victory with hordes of keshicks
Decided to try Feudalist govt – never tried before.
Revolted 130 BC – 5 turn anarchy
Maintained for remainder of game – corruption seemed huge – made worse by palace shift to Pyongyang in 1030AD in central Korean area -> my original productive core became nearly worthless! Used whipping frequently -> happiness difficulties

650BC Entered MA at war with stronger Russians and Chinese, only 5 cities
600BC Hovd
430BC Darham (in place of Tabriz – razed by Chinese in about 670BC)
~300BC – peace (paid Russia gold, China paid me – surprising since they razed my city!)
130BC Feudalism -> revolution – 5 turn anarchy
230AD China redeclare war. This time bring Russia, Korea and Japan into alliance against them
300AD Monotheism
Take Chinese cities west of great wall
420AD Chivalry
510AD breached Great Wall with horse men
530AD Mongols are 2nd largest nation behind Celts
590AD Purchase Invention from Japs for 10gpt + 647
620Ad Complete Sun Tzu’s
630AD Take Xinjian, Japs take Beijing with its ivory 1 turn before my 7 keshiks arrive
650 AD Xinjian flipped!!
660AD retake Xinjian with keshiks triggering GA – also get 1st GML -> Keshik army
Take remainder Chinese cities exc lone tundra city north of Japan
760AD Contact with Portugal
Japan brings large force through great wall before I think to block it – they head for Kazan (has Sun Tzu’s, building heroic epic) with 4 samurai, 4LB,5MI v my 1 spear – I counter with my keshik army and 7 keshiks adjacent Japs 2 biggest cities and bring all avail defensive units to Kazan.
770AD Education (Japs had built GL)
790 Japs leave vicinity of Kazan
Contact Celts. Trade Jap Edu for iron – to upgrade spears, Celts Edu for Gunpowder+ 15gpt -> spears to muskets instead. Both saltpetre on continent in Mongol territory.
820AD Heroic Epic built in Kazan
Plan Russian invasion – 1 turn left on ROP
830AD DOW Russia – Ally Jap (gift them gunpowder – useless as they have no access to saltpetre) & Korea who req both Gunpowder and Theology
12 Russian cites captured, 1 destroyed by 940AD destroying Russians – Keshiks rock!
Peace with Chinese870AD for 38gpt+66g once alliance with Jap runs out
940AD Atlay (new city in old China area) flipped to Japs
950AD Astronomy researched (to allow transport to other continent)
Japan threatening again – retreat when I order them to leave
980AD Korea move into threatening pos (bad move) 1 turn before ROP expires
990AD Don’t renew ROP – Korea withdraw – a pity I’m ready
1000AD Contact Scandinavia 32gpt+23g for Astronomy
DOW Korea – ally Japs for 2 lux
1010AD capture 4 cities – get 2nd MGL – save to rush palace
1030 AD rush palace in Pyongyang – central Korea. I thought this a more central location but have since doubted the merits of a palace shift – corruption in my original core rendered them mostly useless even with courthouses which seemed to make little difference
1050 capture Korean capital Seoul with great wall – defended by 6 pikes -> heavy losses for first time.
1070AD 3rd GML - 2nd Keshik Army
1090AD 4th GML – 3rd Keshik army
1100AD Peace with Korea (only 1 city left on island to south) for 3gpt + other 3 cities
1170ADCelts demand Chemistry – refuse -> DOW I ally Scand (already at war) + Port (for Chem)
Jap DOW -> I lose 1 army
1180AD 5th MGL (militaristic works well if fight often) – save for cav
Many losses against Samurai, but steadily capture Jap cities with 2 flips
1210AD 6th MGL
1260AD Mil Trad
1275AD Last Jap iron pillaged – no more Samurai
1295AD Japan destroyed
1310AD Peace with Celts for WM, ROP + gold
Begin transporting units to other continent
1370AD DOW Celts – ally all remaining civs – strengthen weak Port on Celts southern flank with horses and saltpetre + Mil Trad
Pillage all iron and saltpetre as well as raze 4 cities first turn
1375 capture Richborough - decide to abandon following turn as Celts high in culture – risk of flip high
Lost 7 cav to 9 knights on counter attack
1420 capture Entremont with pyramids, ToA, Sistine - keep
7th GML
1430 capture Alesine – Leonardo’s – keep – all other Celtic cities razed until Bergen in 1445
1435 Magnetism
1460 8th MGL
Ships sent out with demolition cavalry teams for remaining isolated islands
1475 Bergen flipped
DOW Vikings (other nations had been no use weakening Celts – Vikings had been banished to a southern island)
1480 Peace with Celts for Printing Press and an island city
DOW Chinese
1485 Portugal – now wish I hadn’t given them Mil Trad, but no match for 6 cav armies – raze cities
1490 9th MGL
China destroyed
Vikings destroyed
DOW Celts
1495 DOW Korea
Celts destroyed
1500 Korea destroyed
1515AD Portugal destroyed – Conquest victory
Firaxis score 4151
Jason score 6666
I’ve no idea how this rates – after my AA debacles I’m pleased just to get a win – only completed chieftain games before. I can see lots of areas for improvement, but doubt I have the patience to be a high scorer. I’m curious about the merits or otherwise of feudalism as well as palace moving. I’ve never moved palace before and usually play in monarchy govt for war.