COTM 17 - Pre-game Discussion

[Twonky]

We keep the forest on the river for the factory and chop the other two. But should we chop forest(s) first or mine BG(s) first?

I made a calculation that goes with mining first and puts the first chop into the first settler. I´m not sure if my sacrificing faster growth for earlier warriors/granary is wise, though. I made this primarily because I hate wasting the ibt-shields.

 

[IronKnight]

I see no good reason to move away from the starting position. We can have a nice 6-turn factory going there in no time, we have a luxury and lots of income for research. We can put at least two core cities on the visible rivers for extra food production.

Worker goes east to irrigate and road the Wine, then chops Forest or mines the Bonus Grasslands. The Wine Hill should be mined and roaded when no other worker actions are urgently needed, at the latest by the arrival of the Republic, when the pay-off is greater. Even without it we have 42 shields per cycle.

We keep the forest on the river for the factory and chop the other two. But should we chop forest(s) first or mine BG(s) first?

I want to try and implement your strategy used in the recent Germany GOTM. How big should I let my capitol grow to before I start pumping out settlers...5? Also, I was going to build a granary early on. Should I coincide a forest chop with the granary construction? Chop 2 forests for the granary? I'm thinking I'd do warrior-warrior-granary as my starting production. I usually build the warriors for the exploration.

 

[Più Freddo]

I want to try and implement your strategy used in the recent Germany GOTM. How big should I let my capitol grow to before I start pumping out settlers...5?

There the Granary was ready already at size 4, so I built a Warrior before the first Settler. We needed citizens and Military Police for fast research. Rather a special case.

Here, food is more abundant and we'll be at size 5 after the Granary, so we actually have to build a Settler or even a Worker just to prune down the population.

In general, after the Granary, immediately build a Settler, then time -- using other builds or even Wealth -- the rest of the Settlers to coincide with population growth: the second time to stay in size and the third to grow. Reach the size where you want to operate your Factory (usually 4-6 or 5-7) and stay there.

Also, I was going to build a granary early on. Should I coincide a forest chop with the granary construction? Chop 2 forests for the granary? I'm thinking I'd do warrior-warrior-granary as my starting production.

You should consider using a spread-sheet to calculate the options.

Basically, two chops means no mine. Could delay the first Settler.

 

[Redbad]

N, N is definately coast or lake, S, SW is most likely desert, and SW, SW might be as well. from what i'm guessing.

As there's hardly a reason thinkable to move the settler, we just found Entremont and all the mentioned tiles are visible

 

[Redbad]

I´m not sure if my sacrificing faster growth for earlier warriors/granary is wise, though. I made this primarily because I hate wasting the ibt-shields.

Mind you, because you irr/mine/chop before roading you also are sacrificing research for earlier warriors/granary. When aiming for a emporer-slingshot I don't know if it's wise.

 

[Obormot]

I think i'll road the BGs first (without mining), then chop both trees to speed up the granary and build 6-turn settlers. I don't like early mining and combo factories because they need too many worker turns to set up. I'll propably build 2 warriors before the granary hoping to trade for alphabet, but i'll set research on alphabet anyway. I'll return them for MP as soon as i trade or self-research alphabet.

 

[Nata]

Hmm, it seems like a juicy 20K site, except not on the coast.
But I never did 20K on Emperor, or in C3C, for that matter.
How do we manage republic slingshot and research for wonders at the same time? How do we manage without wonder-building GLs?

Unchartered waters for me, but maybe I'll try it.

Maybe because we are religious it would make sense to go Monarchy path instead, Mist->Poly, hoping to trade them for Alpha/Writing, then Phylosophy->Monarchy, while prebuilding with ToA for HG? And then use Monarchy to get the rest of AA techs, or even maybe Republic?

 

[Obormot]

While researching the republic slingshot you should be able to trade for the wonder techs. Don't go for Monarchy, research speed is crucial for the 20k goal.

 

[Dynamic]

Celts are agricultural, so they get 3 in the city center when settling at fresh water.
But there's also where the problem comes in. I think the starting tile is not on the river.

Sorry, I miss agricultural trait...
Last games were with not agricultural civs and I totally forget about this.

Starting place is on the river and NW forest also. Tiles S,SW and SW,SW are flood plains or deserts.

 

[denyd]

Being religious would allow a multiple revolt game,so a research path to Monarchy would allow for a Temple, Oracle, ToA (pre-build) for HG and with lots of trading at least one other AA Wonder (Great Library) might be possible

 

[Own]

Another wines on grassland would be a 4 turner. I sure hope for one of those.

 

[pindicator]

Looks like first worker move is definitely to the east, on the wine. Hopefully a third wine is E-SE or NE-NE for the 4-turn factory, but if there is a wine E-E we also need another BG and settle NE.

Irrigate the wine first for growth in 6. Probably warrior-warrior-granary-settler build order. I'll have to run the numbers, but doing warrior-warrior-worker-granary seems possible with our food bonus' and the extra forests to rush the granary along; it'll also help getting the land improved quickly for any factory, 4 or 6 turn.

 

[Own]

I'm sure there will be plenty in the fog, so I would settle on the BG if necessary. But that desert tile might be a FP

 

[Markus5]

If I use the whip in Feudalism to hurry production, what is the citizen to shield conversion rate?

I've never used Feudalism, but it looks like a good choice to get things built in corrupt, but growing towns and cities. Seems to be the choice for 100k players. Pack the world with towns and whip growth into culture. 3 MPs is nice. And, 5 unit support in towns? I'll have to try this sometime. Maybe this game.

 

[Jove]

@Markus5: I believe you get 20 shields per citizen, just like in Despotism.

With this start, I'll do what I usually do: look for food. If I see a nice spot on a river with a food bonus, I'll build warriors->settler first. My thinking is, a granary doubles your growth, right? Well, a 2nd city equivalent to the first doubles your growth too, at least at first, and it starts quicker. If there's really a lot of food, I may build several settlers first... I really have to see the surroundings. Hopefully they're better than Redbad's dystopian starting model.

 

[killerkid]

20K might be tough. If you did it, it would have to be your second city or it would take a while to expand. City 1 looks like a HUGE settler factory. Especially if Own is right about the FP. Should be a great COTM.

 

[Redbad]

Hopefully they're better than Redbad's dystopian starting model.

I had to look that one up in the dictionary. I guess you don't find my model to be perfectly suited for a pre-1600 100K win

 

[Jove]

Yeah, no offense. I'm just hoping for a little more land than that...

 

[Nata]

I tried 20K in test game, in a much worse random start (on a lake instead of a river, no hills but still Luxs in a city radius, jummed into continent's corner), and saw that it's doable.
I got Oracle, Pyramids and Glib in AA, missed Monarchy slingshot but got good trades from Phyl, build Cath/Library/Collosseum in the BCs. Things got tougher in MA as AIs got their land improved, it was impossible to get any of the required-tech wonders. But I got optionals: Bach and Shake's (and KT - ina cascade), and can probably get Smith as AI isn't bothering researching for it.
I never got to use GS! I had no Iron, and when I got it it was too late - got GA from Pyramids&Oracle (should remember this combination...). I was weak throughout, but still had something like 5000c+59cpt in 9th century.
So it's doable, and I'm almost convinced to do it. Especially if there's no other religious Civs.

 

[Redbad]

I - got GA from Pyramids&Oracle (should remember this combination...).

Me thinks Pyramids alone will trigger GA