Cottages and Trading Posts

[stealth_nsk]

On a flatland tile without a bonus resource, there are only two yield-increasing improvements your workers can build: farm or trading post. So of course there is going to be farmspam and TP spam. There's no alternative.

Or fort. Or GP improvement. And I don't think flatlands without resources and forests will be dominating terrain.

 

[Theon]

The only thing that bothers me much about this change is the appearance of trading posts. I would much prefer actual buildings over tents but that is bound to be modded soon after the release of civilization 5 anyway.

 

[Ahriman]

Or fort

Doesn't increase yield, you won't want to be spamming these in the center of your empire.

Or GP improvement

Not buildable by workers, not generally available.

And I don't think flatlands without resources and forests will be dominating terrain

Really? It always has in previous civ games.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Doesn't increase yield, you won't want to be spamming these in the center of your empire.

I'm not saying about spamming I'm saying for diluting farms and trading posts.

Not buildable by workers, not generally available.

The same.

Really? It always has in previous civ games.

Look here:
http://www.gamestar.de/_misc/images/original.cfm?pk=2120252
Less than half is just plain terrain. And probably some forests already chopped.

 

[Zhahz]

I understand why they eliminated the growth element of cottages (although I personally liked that it rewarded long-term planning and penalized exploitation). Why they felt the need to change the name/identity from cottages/villages/towns to "trading posts" seems less clear.

I like the investment/return aspect of cottages too.

I also think the cottages looked kinda cool - kinda like your city grows suburbia and sprawls over time. When cities next to each other sprawl into each other over the ages, you get a modern megalopolis type of feel going on.

One thing that's not known is how GPP accumulate (global vs per city). If it's global, IMO, it makes specialists more potentially attractive. (I know specialist economy is solid in IV but I have never fully gone with it due to how GPP works.) It seems like some social policies tie in to specialists and if GPP are global, the decision between gold producing trading posts and specialists could be a lot more compelling, and result in less map-wide trading post spam.

Lastly, in preview screenshots, which aren't the be all end all, even in late game you don't see huge city populations. You may not need to improve every tile around a city because there may be no way to ever have the population to work them. (So, there's be less farm/post spam.)

 

[Ahriman]

I'm not saying about spamming I'm saying for diluting farms and trading posts.

It won't be diluting farms and trading posts, because you'd be an idiot to use up valuable productive tiles with forts deep in your empire. Forts are for borders.

The same.

These are rare, they could well have negligble impact on diluting farms and TPs.

The simple fact is that we're going from 4 main flatland improvements (farm, cottage, workshop, waterwheel) - where we already talked about cottagespam - to 2 main flatland improvements.
Its hardly surprising that spam increases.

Look here:

In that screenshot, 80%+ terrain is flatland.
A few have jungles on them, which cannot support any terrain improvement.

 

[Disgustipated]

I'd like to see something that evolves into a more modern name (and graphics) once you hit the modern age. But that seems unlikely. I hate to have tents hanging around all the way to 2050 or whatever.

 

[stealth_nsk]

In that screenshot, 80%+ terrain is flatland.
A few have jungles on them, which cannot support any terrain improvement.

34 resourceless flatland tiles (including cities) vs. 46 other tiles.
Yes, this city have a lot of jungles, that's why university is build here, so jungles provide +2 science. No need in any improvements there.

 

[Mannu]

I hate Trading Post spam so much, which is odd because I never hated cottage spam, though now that I think about it I kind of disliked it. Cities shouldn't cover the entire workable area. Even in the modern area I prefer to have a one tile city. I think it bothers me because it makes no logical sense to have multiple trading posts within a city radius. It's just nonsensical.

I'll definitely be looking for a mod to be rid of Trading Post spam.

 

[JonoLith]

Look here:
http://www.gamestar.de/_misc/images/original.cfm?pk=2120252
Less than half is just plain terrain. And probably some forests already chopped.

I've never seen that screenie before. Forests give Science eh? That's extremely interesting.

I also don't think there's a starvation mechanic like in Civ 4. It just seems like food is only for filling up your population bar faster.

Interesting. Interesting. Interesting.

And it's ALSO looking like you can flip tiles between city control! INTERESTING!

This screenshot is a gold mine.

 

[Dearmad]

I assume the pillager will be much more active now, with 4-tile moving light cavalry (5-tile for some UU). However this is compensated with pillaged improvements not completely destroyed, so they could be rebuilt in less turns.

Nah. Zone of control is sort of in. (1 move per turn when in it rather than full move)
One unit per tile means our armies are spread out more in-depth
It's easier to block "diagonals" on a hex grid.

Controlling one's land with one's military should be a little bit more straightforward now.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

A couple of important differences between Cottages +Trading posts

Cottages could an amount of Gold that increased with time, and Excess Gold could become Science
This meant that they were key to a peaceful strategy... war would destroy the cottages and they couldn't be used for military production.
Farms for a Specialist Strategy were similar to Cottages, except different Civics were used (and the Super city coming from settling Specialists was important)


Trading Posts produce Gold that only increases with technology, and Excess Gold can be converted into Production
This means that Trading posts are the Equivalent of Workshops/Watermills in Civ 4. You use them for a military strategy of getting Production from Flat Terrain.


Farms seem to be the new "Cottages"... they give you population which provides research and a wide array of other benefits.. population that takes time to grow, and requires investment of Libraries to allow specialists, Theaters to increase the happy cap, etc. While the Farm itself doesn't grow, the population that it supports does (ie 1 pop working a farm tile over time becomes 1 pop working a Farm Tile+X Specialists supported by the Farm).

When it came down to it, in Civ 4 there were only
3 improvements
Farms-Food.. for Specialists
Cottages-Commerce.. for Science
Workshop/Mine/Watermill/Lumbermill-Production

Specialists were primarily used to generate Science... so really there were only 2 strategies
Science heavy (Farms+Specialists or Cottages: depending on preferences)
Production heavy (Workshops/Mine/Mills)

In Civ 5 it looks like they are simplifying this

Trading post/Lumbermill/Mine for Production
Farms for Science (or Culture which seems another important 'Peace' resource)

edit: noticed that forest/jungle can apparently produce Science... This may lead to a 'mixed' strategy using Lumbermills (perhaps they work in Jungles?)

 

[Szpilman]

A couple of important differences between Cottages +Trading posts

Cottages could an amount of Gold that increased with time, and Excess Gold could become Science
This meant that they were key to a peaceful strategy... war would destroy the cottages and they couldn't be used for military production.
Farms for a Specialist Strategy were similar to Cottages, except different Civics were used (and the Super city coming from settling Specialists was important)


Trading Posts produce Gold that only increases with technology, and Excess Gold can be converted into Production
This means that Trading posts are the Equivalent of Workshops/Watermills in Civ 4. You use them for a military strategy of getting Production from Flat Terrain.


Farms seem to be the new "Cottages"... they give you population which provides research and a wide array of other benefits.. population that takes time to grow, and requires investment of Libraries to allow specialists, Theaters to increase the happy cap, etc. While the Farm itself doesn't grow, the population that it supports does (ie 1 pop working a farm tile over time becomes 1 pop working a Farm Tile+X Specialists supported by the Farm).

When it came down to it, in Civ 4 there were only
3 improvements
Farms-Food.. for Specialists
Cottages-Commerce.. for Science
Workshop/Mine/Watermill/Lumbermill-Production

Specialists were primarily used to generate Science... so really there were only 2 strategies
Science heavy (Farms+Specialists or Cottages: depending on preferences)
Production heavy (Workshops/Mine/Mills)

In Civ 5 it looks like they are simplifying this

Trading post/Lumbermill/Mine for Production
Farms for Science (or Culture which seems another important 'Peace' resource)

edit: noticed that forest/jungle can apparently produce Science... This may lead to a 'mixed' strategy using Lumbermills (perhaps they work in Jungles?)

Excellent analysis. Probably jungles won't allow lumbermills, but if they give science that's already excellent. Lumbermill (early) is an incentive for keeping forests around, and university for keeping jungles, I like that.

Damn, the screenie won't load up for me, I so wanted to see it..
Edit: I can now see it! Wow, it's real gold! I'm really liking how specialist buildings allocation works, with them going to a specific building instead of buildings merely upping your cap in cIV, it was too generic and for new players it meant not using specialists untill you were working all tiles.

How is Tenochtitlan size 15 when it only has 11 Citizens? (I like calling it "Population" much better, "Citizen" is such as stretch in abstraction I don't know how they do it.)

 

[Szpilman]

One fix that could end ugly trade post spam and even add somewhat realism, is to disallow having two adjacent trade posts. This way, they would be more spread out with farms/mines/lumbermills between them, and look like each of them actually served their region of trade. Granted, this idea has no gameplay reason at all, merely an aesthetic one, and shouldn't really be taken seriously

I do however think the graphics should go more towards normal buildings and more drab natural tents.

Gameplay reason it would have: to balance out their spam. I believe you mean it has no real grounds for being enforced, but then I think it has as well. Why would there be several trading posts in a given area? You only really need one in every major area, realistically speaking.

I don't like trading posts at all, they're silly. I mean, trading posts? I could see them being a GP improvement, done by a Great Merchant, that would make much more sense and make them more unique. Cottages were much more believable, they grew to towns and emulated the urbanizing of our society over the eras.

They could be modded in with only two or three upgrades, maybe from cottage to village to town. And then providing about as much gold as a trading post does as you learn new techs.

About losing them to pillage, it would now be way easier to protect your towns with 1UPT, it would be much more of a fit, it's a real shame they dropped it, probably because of new players as others have said.

 

[Zechnophobe]

What exactly is wrong about building cottages everywhere? Why did people think of that as a negative? Urban sprawl seems like a pretty reasonable thing, and it makes a 'city' feel like more than just a single plot.

As of now, the 'feel' for trading posts is really off. A mining operation, a farming area... these are things I could imagine taking a large amount of space. A trading post just sounds so.. finite to me.

 

[Szpilman]

What exactly is wrong about building cottages everywhere? Why did people think of that as a negative? Urban sprawl seems like a pretty reasonable thing, and it makes a 'city' feel like more than just a single plot.

As of now, the 'feel' for trading posts is really off. A mining operation, a farming area... these are things I could imagine taking a large amount of space. A trading post just sounds so.. finite to me.

You could better think of it as "trading center", which really would mean a village/town. Trading center could be a compromise between believability and giving it a name instantly associated with gold, for newcomers.

 

[catechol]

How is Tenochtitlan size 15 when it only has 11 Citizens? (I like calling it "Population" much better, "Citizen" is such as stretch in abstraction I don't know how they do it.)

That's actually the strength value of the city

 

[Szpilman]

That's actually the strength value of the city

I bet you've been quite the lurker, heh? It's like you know your way around too much

 

[KrikkitTwo]

You could better think of it as "trading center", which really would mean a village/town. Trading center could be a compromise between believability and giving it a name instantly associated with gold, for newcomers.

I like that Idea

 

[catechol]

I bet you've been quite the lurker, heh? It's like you know your way around too much

I just get excited about civ