Create a good vanilla line-up for Civilization

Ignoring marketing and catering solely to my tastes, vanilla lineup which would satisfy me if repeated every time.

India - anybody except Gandhi
China - anybody except Mao (shudders), Huangdi or token female Wu Zetian.
Persia - please God no Achaemenids anymore, bonus points for Islamic era leader, name list and traits
Arabia - any good medieval caliph is fine
Egypt - anybody except Cleopatra, hell we have great alternate choices even for females
Greece - honestly I love Firaxis unexpected idea to put Alexander in separate 'Macedon' civ, because his personality was always warping Greece into hardcore military civ, so as weird as it sounds: anybody except Alexander. Also, preferred Athenian leaders because I utterly despise Sparta.
Rome - anybody other than Julius Caesar.
Germany - anybody provided he/she's supreme ruler of either HRE, Prussia or German Empire.
France - anybody other than Catherine di Medici, also I prefer somebody else from Napoleon for sake of diversity.
England - anybody other than Churchill, Victoria and Elizabeth. And on top of that I prefer parliamentary leader such as William Pitt, because any other civ can have a monarch but few can have cool prime minister.
Russia - anybody other than Stalin (shudders), Peter the Great or Catherine the Great. I love the latter lady but again, something fresh please.
Mongolia - should be in vanilla lineup. I will not say 'anybody but Genghis' because he's basically demigod, but I'd be fine with other khan once (and Genghis as inevitable DLC )
America - anybody other than Washington (and preferably also Lincoln)
Inca or anything Andean - yeah I think they should be in vanilla lineup every time, either them or any other Andean civ (but others have huge problem of lack of leaders).
Anything from Mexico - may change from game to game, just anything from here: it doesn't have to be Aztec, it may also be Maya, Olmec (again: leader problem) or... Mexico.
Anything from South East Asia
Anything from Subsaharan Africa
[wilcard slot]

And yes, for me vanilla lineup doesn't have to include Aztecs, Mesopotamia, Ottomans, Spain or most controversially Japan.

 

I like Krazjen's list, but I would wait for an expansion to put Mexico into the game. I've said it before, but I wouldn't be surprised if Maya is in the original line up for civ7 and Mexico is in one of the expansions, with Aztecs sitting the game out.

 

Two years later, ask and you shall receive.

 

My thoughts. Trying to balance between what I personally might want, what people might expect, and what I think might be appropriate. So I’m splitting it with about 1/3 of each.

Vanilla (with 18 [21] civs):

America (Theodore Roosevelt) [I like him]
Arabia (Harun al-Rashid) [He’s a solid choice]
Babylon (Hammurabi) [Bring them back!]
Carthage/Phoenicia (Hannibal/Dido) [Perfect opportunity for a Civ with two different iterations]
China (Qin Shi Huang) [To start anyway...]
Egypt (Cleopatra) [She’s iconic.]
England (Henry VIII) [Need some bad alongside the good]
France (Joan of Arc) [She’s famous and I don’t have a problem with her.]
Germany (Barbarossa) [He was a long time coming.]
Greece (Pericles/Leonidas) [I like the Athens/Sparta split]
Inca (Pachacuti) [An acceptable choice]
India (Ashoka) [Gandhi can wait]
Japan (Minamoto Yoritomo) [A worthy Shogun]
Mali (Mansa Musa) [A solid Central African civ]
Maya (Siyaj K’ak’ [Fire is Born]) [Because the Maya deserve a scary warlord for once.]
Persia (Darius) [Can’t leave them out]
Rome (Julius Caesar) [Too iconic to leave out. DLC will amp them up.]
Russia (Ivan the Terrible) [Same logic as with England. The villains make the story.]

Pre-order Bonus: Mongolia (Genghis Khan) [Because who would want to miss out on him? Even for 90 days only.]
Deluxe Version (DLC 1 on Day 1): Conquest of the New World pack with scenario and Aztecs (Montezuma) and Spain (Isabella)

DLC Leader Pack ($15): Lincoln (America), Victoria (England), Catherine (Russia), Gandhi (India), Napoleon (France), Ramses (Egypt) [Play your favorites!]

XP1:

Brazil (Pedro I) [Not my favorite but they’re expected now]
Ethiopia (Yodit) [A warmongering Queen!]
Gaul (Vercingetorix) [Because Celts ought to be done right]
Iroquois (Jigonhsasee) [A female leader, never seen before]
Korea (Seondeok) [She was a good choice]
Khmer (Jayavarman) [SE Asia needs a rep.]
Norway (Hardrada) [Another good choice by Firaxis]
Zulu (Shaka) [A popular addition]
Plus Charlemagne (for France and Germany), Kublai Khan (for China and Mongolia) and Cicero or Marcus Aurelius for Rome.

Lots more DLC and XPs to come.

 

Well, who knows, civ6 vanilla had literally no indigenous American civilization, just America and Brazil (Aztec were sort or weird DLC at first)

 

Gotta love how many lists in this thread have like two, three women in them.

I actually would release a base game with exactly the same civs as we got, except:

1. I would consider replacing Scythia with the Kazakhs, although that would mean one less female leader and Tomyris is fine by me. What I really want is a true PIE culture so Scythia kind of hits a reasonable balance between that and Kazakh nomads.

2. I would consider replacing Sumeria with Akkadia, although I still think given enough development and polishing that it would still end up as Sumeria led by Gilgamesh.

3. I would replace Victoria and Catherine de Medici with Eleanor. Keep further leaders on the two staples a mystery. Victoria would still be planned for later. But since I still don't see the point of CdM, that would leave room for a Charlemagne or Louis or Napoleon. Eleanor seems a bit complicated but she really isn't and only requires loyalty from later packs to understand. Victoria and the French leader could receive more complicated commerce and espionage abilities in later expansions.

4. Leave Ghandhi. I'd prefer Chandragupta and a Chola leader, but there's no dispute that staples like Ghandhi help sell the thing and he is probably the best leader for modern India.

What I wouldwould to do but can't

5. DLC civ is Mexico led by Benito, not Aztecs. Please players with a requested civ and leave them guessing on a staple classic like Aztecs. Then plan Montezuma as a second Mexico leader.

6. I like that we got Spain over Portugal, but to keep linguistic diversity with the Mexico DLC, I would then replace Spain with Portugal and cut Brazil. And I guess to fill the hole left in South America and no pre-colonial civ, the Inca would replace Brazil. Brazil replaces Inca in expack 2. Spain replaces Portugal in expack 3.

7. The base game is now mechanically less than ideal. Because now England and Portugal push up against each other mechanically and we don't have a missionary-style civ in Spain. We also have the somewhat complicated Inca in base game and no rainforest civ in Brazil. So Spain and Aztecs stay.

 

I've mentioned it before, i'm designing a Civ 7 Version and I found narrowing down the base game civs really difficult without snubbing a big name. But as far as I'm concerned these are imo deserving of being in the base game:

(Leaders I would consider are in brackets.)

1) British: Mercia (Æthelflæd) / England (Elizabeth, Henry VIII) / Britain (Walpole, Churchill)
2) French: France (Louis XIV, Napoleon) / Franks (Clovis, Charlemagne)
3) Germans: Germany (Bismarck, Adenauer) / Prussia (Frederick II) / HRE (Barbarossa, Maria Theresa)
4) Russians: Russia (Piotr, Ekatarina) / Kievan Rus (Yaroslav, Olga)
5) Romans: Rome (Augustus, Livia, Hadrian) / Byzantium (Theodora, Alexios, Anna Dalassene)
6) Greeks: Athens (Alcibiades, Perikles, Solon, Themosticles) / Sparta (Lysander, Leonidas) / Macedon (Alexandros)
7) Americans: United States (Jefferson, Jackson)
8) Egyptians: Egypt (Senusret III, Hatshepsut, Ramesses II, Cleopatra)
9) Indians: Maurya (Chandragupta, Ashoka) / Mughal (Akbar, Nur Jahan) / Republic of India (Mohandas Gandhi, Indira Gandhi)
10) Chinese: Qin (Qin Shi Huang) / Han (Liu Bang) / Tang (Tianzong, Wu Zetian) / Ming (Yongle) / Qing (Kanxi, Cixi)
11) Japanese: Yamato (Himiko) / Nippon (Meiji, Hirobumi)
12) Turks*: Seljuks (Alp Arslan) / Ottomans (Mehmet II) / Turks (Atatürk)
13) Steppe Nomads*: Mongolia (Mandukhai) / Scythians (Tomyris)
14) Mesoamericans: Mayans (Lady Six Sky) / Aztecs (Montezuma) / Incans (Tupaq Yupanqui)
15) Native Americans: Sioux (Sitting Bull) / Navajo (Manuelito) / Iroquois (Jigonsahse) / Cree(Poundmaker)
16) Mesopotamians: (Assyrians (Sammuramat, Ashurbanipal) / Babylonians (Hammurabi) / Sumerians (Gilgamesh, Sargon) )
17) Persians: (Achaemenids (Cyrus) / Sassanids (Khosrow I) / Parthians (Mithridates II) / Iran (Abbas I) )
18) Arabs*: (Arabia (Saladin) / Abbasids (Harun al-Rashid) / Mamluks (Shajar al-Durr) / Moroccans(Al-Mansur, Sayidda al-Hurrah)

The ones with a * aren't in my Civ 7 vision base game, but I made sure they had a worthy equivalent: Hittites replace the Turks, Parthians replace the Steppe Nomads (and fill a slot as the token Persian civ) and I have the Carthaginians fill in North Africa in absence of the Arabs. I didn't fit all of them in (I went with 19 Civs anyway, with 20 leaders), because I needed new Civs and because I also felt like Mongolia/Ottomans/Arabs can be delayed to a DLC/XPac if needed (though not further than the first xpac because seriously)

 

I don't remember if I already did this and I'm not going to check to see. Instead, I'll do it again anyway. The following list is something of a compromise between what I want and what I could reasonably expect from Firaxis. I'll assume a 20 civ base game with no alternate leaders (I really don't see the feature returning, honestly).

America - Calvin Coolidge
Arabia - Harun al-Rashid
Assyria - Tiglath-Pileser III
Benin - Idia
Burma - Bayinnaung
China - Wu Zetian
Egypt - Hatshepsut
England - Elizabeth I (I want Henry V very badly, but, I mean, Elizabeth )
France - Francis I
Germany - Charles V (I rather like a Holy Roman Emperor leading Germany)
Greece - Solon
India - Shah Jahan (Nuclear Gandhi joke is only 20+ years stale at this point...)
Japan - Fujiwara no Michinaga (Heian Japan would be something different...)
Maya - Lady Six Sky
Muisca - Nemequene
Parthia - Mithradates II
Powhatan - Powhatan
Rome - Severus Septimius
Russia - Catherine the Great
Tuareg - Tin Hinan

So we get most of the old standbys, a few curveballs, a new Iranian horselord civ that actually has a city list and leaders (*glares at Tomyris*), no Nuclear Gandhi, some old friends and some new faces, not a single post-colonial nation except the obligatory America, and a reasonably filled out map for the TSL players.

 

Yeah, and I realize it's still early to be talking about civ7, but since the pre-order bonus for civ5 was Mesopotamian and the bonus for civ6 was Mesoamerican, we're probably going to get something like India for civ7's.

 

18 vanilla civs:

1) America (Abraham Lincoln)
2) England (Victoria)
3) France (Louis XIV)
4) Germany (Otto von Bismarck)
5) Rome (Marcus Aurelius)
6) Greece (Epameinondas of Thebes)
7) Persia (Cyrus)
8) Korea (Sejong)
9) Maya (Pakal I)
10) India (Akbar)
11) China (Qin Shi Huang)
12) Japan (Meiji)
13) Russia (Ivan IV)
14) Assyria (Ashurbanipal)
15) Egypt (Hatshepsut)
16) Mongolia (Genghis Khan)
17) Zulu (Shaka)
18) Spain (Isabella of Castile)

Pre-order bonus civ: Arabia (Harun al-Rashid)


Based (roughly) on the DLC policy of Civ VI:

1st DLC: Byzantium (Alexios Komnenos) and Ottomans (Mehmet II) - Fall of Constantinople scenario

2nd DLC: Iroquois (Hiawatha) and Netherlands (William of Orange) - New world/Colonization scenario

3rd DLC: Inca (Pachacuti) and Aztecs (Montezuma) - Conquistador/El Dorado scenario

4th DLC: Carthage (Hannibal Barca) and Numidia (Massinissa) - Punic wars scenario

5th DLC: Ethiopia (Haile Selassie) and Italy (Lorenzo de Medici) - Scramble for Africa scenario

6th DLC: Hittites (Suppiluliuma I) and Mittani (Shaushtatar) - Bronze age collapse/Sea peoples scenario

 

I don't know, man, Puduhepa is almost too obvious, with being a female ruler, especially since she was actually a decent leader in a region with few female leaders

 

Have we moved on to designing Civ 7? If so here is how I would do it.

1. America (Lincoln)
2. China (Wu and Qin)
3. Egypt (Cleopatra and Rameses)
4. Rome Juliius Caesar and Hadrian)
5. Greece (Pericles and Alexander)
6. England (Elizabeth and Churchill)
7. France (Louis XIV and Napoleon)
8. Germany (Bismarck)
9. Russia (Catherine and Lenin)
10. India (Gandhi and Ashoka)
11. Japan (Tokugawa)
12. Maya (Lady Six Sky)
13. Persia (Cyrus)
14. Inca (Huyana Capac)
15. Arabia (Saladin)
16. Mali (Mansa Musa)
17. Khmer (Jayavarman VII)
18. Sumeria (Gilgamesh)

Pre Order Bonus: Iroquois (Denagawida)

1st DLC- Aztecs (Montezuma) and Spain (Isabella)
2nd DLC- Mongolia (Genghis Khan) and Korea (Sejong)
3rd DLC- Ottomans (Suleiman) and Byzantium (Justinian)
4th DLC- Assyria (Ashurbanipal) and Babylon (Hammurabi)
5th DLC- Italy (Lorenzo de Medici) and Ethiopia (Ezana)
6th DLC- The Netherlands (Williiam of Orange) and Zulu (Shaka)

 

My leader choices are made based purely on merit and my own preferences, not necessarily how Firaxis likes to pick leaders. I think it's quite obvious from my list that me and Firaxis do not see eye to eye on the majority of leaders they have already introduced.

 

Going on the 18 Civs + 1 DLC model, I would have my roster look like this…

AMERICAS

America
Leader: Theodore Roosevelt
UU: F-16
UI: Movie Theatre

Navajo
Leader: Narbona
UU: Codetalker
UI: Hogan

Inca
Leader: Huayna Capac
UU: Chasqui
UI: Terrace

EUROPE

England
Leader: Elizabeth I
UU: Dreadnought
UI: Wharf

France
Leader: Louis XIV
UU: Cuirassier
UI: Salon

Germany
Leader: Otto I
UU: Paladin
UI: Alehouse

Spain
Leader: Philip II
UU: Conquistador
UI: Bullring

Russia
Leader: Catherine
UU: Cossack
UI: Train Station

AFRICA

Egypt
Leader: Hatshepsut
UU: Chariot Archer
UI: Mausoleum

Congo
Leader: Ana Nzinga
UU: Bowmen
UI: Boma

MEDITERRANEAN + MIDDLE EAST

Arabia
Leader: Umar
UU: Haras
UI: Madrasah

Greece
Leader: Alexander
UU: Sarissa
UI: Academy

Persia (Day 1 DLC)
Leader: Abbas I
UU: Hashshashin
UI: Qat

Rome
Leader: Hadrian
UU: Legion
UI: Bath

Sumeria
Leader: Kubaba
UU: Phalanx
UI: Ziggurat

ASIA

China
Leader: Kangxi
UU: Junk
UI: Teahouse

India
Leader: Akbar
UU: Sepoy
UI: Ashram

Japan
Leader: Tokugawa
UU: Samurai
UI: Ryokan

Vietnam
Leader: Le Loi
UU: War Elephant
UI: Water Puppet Theatre

Other DLCs

Byzantium/Turks (Fall of Constantinople)
Mongolia (Death of Temujin)
Denmark (Voyages of Leif Erikson)
Aztecs (Flower Wars)
Maori (The Fight For Aotearoa)

 

The Kangxi Emperor; his name was Xuanye. (Thank you for not choosing Qin Shi Huang; he absolutely does not need to be a staple. )

 

Qin's a quasi-staple, but I really don't like this version. He's known first for reuniting China by military force, but gets no military bonuses. The game gives him ancient/classical wonder bonuses through a corvee labor mechanic (fine, I guess), but there's only one wonder he built in the game with the Great Wall not even being a wonder. He's also known for his ruthless legalist policies, but that's nowhere.

I used to complain that the Qin Dynasty only lasted 15 years, but the Han was in many ways a continuation of the Qin State and his legacy is lasting (down to the name foreigners call the country). The Julio-Claudian Dynasty didn't last more than 100 years. The Hellenic League with the Argead Dynasty lasted about as long as Qin's China. So, I'm willing to give them a pass on choosing Qin for that reason. But the design is so uninspired.

 

Now I've noticed that I've repeated number two twice, no matter , just think that my game base would have 19 civs instead of 18 . Either way, my vanilla would still be more or less that way.
Since my base game and DLCs ideas are ready, I'll do what I would like for expansions, assuming we have three.

Xp1
1. Korea (Sejong)
2. Kongo (Mvemba to Nzinga)
3. Navajo (Narbonne)
4. Argentina (Eva Perón)
5. Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus)
6. Morocco (Ahmad al-Mansur)
7. Siam (Ramkhamhaeng)
8. Phoenicia (Pygmalion)
9. Byzantines (Theodora)
10. Assyria (Ashurbanipal)
Alt leaders: Russia (Peter the Great) and Germany (Frederick Barbarossa)

Xp2
1. Austria (Maria Theresa)
2. Italy (Enrico Dandolo)
3. Muisca (Nemequene)
4. Hittites (Mursilis)
5. Ashanti (Yaa Asantewaa)
6. Gauls (Vercingetorix)
7. Canada (Wilfrid Laurier)
8. Nepal (Prithvi Narayan)
9. Poland (Casimir III)
10. Georgia (Tamar)
Alt leaders: Arabia (Saladin) and Spain (Philip II)

Xp3
1. Hungary (Matthias Corvinus)
2. Goths (Alaric I)
3. Vietnam (Trung Sisters)
4. Australia (John Curtin)
5. Romania (Vlad the Impaler)
6. Cree (Poundmaker)
7. Zulus (Shaka)
8. Mapuche (Lautaro)
9. Cítia (Tomyris)
10. Oman (Saif bin Sultan)
Alt leaders: Maya (Lady Six Sky) and Greece (Leonidas I)

For final DLCs:
1. Charlemagne (France or Germany) and Constantine the Great (Rome)
2. Kublai Khan (China or Mongolia) and Gandhi (India)
3. Eleanor of Aquitaine (France or England) and Oda Nobunaga (Japan)
4. Cleopatra (Egypt) and Hongwu (China)
5. William III (Netherlands or England) and Lorenzo de' Medici (Italy)

 

My objection isn't that Qin's not important, because of course he is. My objection is that China has a metric ton of other great options; there's no need to continuously recycle Qin Shi Huang. I was rather disappointed by his selection after some of the more interesting leader choices Firaxis made like Teddy Roosevelt and Hojo Tokimune.