Creation vs. Evolution

Do you believe in creation or evolution?

  • Creation

    Votes: 21 23.3%
  • Evolution

    Votes: 57 63.3%
  • Other (?) - Please specify

    Votes: 11 12.2%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • Total voters
    90
Response to FL2's two last posts in this thread. In Genesis statements are made that may be correct but without many facts to give proof.

We already agreed that Genesis is not correct when it is about measuring time, why should other statements be accepted if we already agree that some things are wrong in it?

On the sequence of events as described by Moses, this is not rocket science.

And last but not least I am very curious to learn historical references to the Bible from other BC cultures!
 
My problem with many religious people talking about the bible:
Whenever they try to find an answer to questions they point at the bible and say: look there it is the answer it is in the bible. Whenever it becomes apparent that what is in the bible is not true (earth made in 6 days or something like that...) you shouldn't take it literally but you should interpretet the text in another way. It seems they are bending information just as long until it fits.
 
Originally posted by Fearless Leader
Yes, but in evolution, we are told that the good mutations are kept by natural selection, and it is given some form of selectivity, making it sentient, and therefore, since it too is timeless, a god of sorts (Gaia the Pruner). That is a god AND random mutation, instead of just a god.

This is the first time I've ever heard of survival of the fittest being considered to be a sentient being. I previously thought it was the one aspect of this arguement that everyone could agree on.

I thought that if God plays a part in evolution, It was involved in random mutations, making changes which will suit the enviroment more likely to occur.
 
Originally posted by civ1-addict
you shouldn't take it literally but you should interpretet the text in another way. It seems they are bending information just as long until it fits.
Here's the thing that BOTH sides need to remember, and often forget. The Bible is NOT a scientific document. It never claims to be. Anyone who claims it is needs to study the history of the thing a bit more. It is a collected work written over a period of centuries. Over that time it has been translated, retranslated, reinterpreted, edited, and exised. Even now there is serious debate about what part of the Bible is original, and what was scribbled in by later revisionists. Furthermore, it combines actual history as told by the people who wrote it, along with symbolism, allegory, and a mix of mythologies encountered along the way. Anyone using the Bible as a source either FOR or AGAINST any theory needs to take this into accout.

Furthermore, Religion and Science are two DIFFERENT ways of looking at the universe, but at different parts of the Universe. IMO, they dont necessarily contradict each other and I dont see why people always try to turn it into a 'One is right, the other is wrong' argument.
 
Evolution. Anyone that says any different is uneducated and ignorant. Not to be harsh but it is completely true. Carbon dating is nature's most effective clock. Instead of simply disproving all religious dogma/BS, just challange me in one area and I'll refute it.

People like Fearless Leader 2 prove every word in the above paragraph.
 
Evolution. Anyone that says any different is uneducated and ignorant
(by Newfangle) It seems that you are the one which is uneducated and ignorant, when you believe the old Darwin theory of Evolution.

People like Fearless Leader 2 prove every word in the above paragraph.
(by Newfangle) Which paragraph are you referring to? Because Fearlessleader2 does not support the old theory of Evolution, he believes there is a creator.
 
Originally posted by newfangle
Evolution. Anyone that says any different is uneducated and ignorant. Not to be harsh but it is completely true. Carbon dating is nature's most effective clock. Instead of simply disproving all religious dogma/BS, just challange me in one area and I'll refute it.

How about the fact we know carbon dating's only accurate to about 5,000 years? :cooool:
 
All,

I had hoped to come to some understanding of each others arguments and reasoning.

Creationists apparently believe in faith and accept that there are facts a god does not want mankind to know, thereby accepting that creation can not be proven from a scientifical point of view.

Evolutionists look for facts to prove a theory to be wright or wrong and take a highly scientific perspective. That means that the theory that best explains a phenomenon is the accepted theory. With new facts becoming available a new theory might be developed or an existing one refined.

If we do not understand and accept each others base views and reasoning we will have a-not-so-interesting yes/no discussion.

That is it for me for the coming 1,5 weeks. Holiday calls, cu all 21 July!
 
by Becka:
How about the fact we know carbon dating's only accurate to about 5,000 years?
In fact, in teh last 16 years, it has been learned and documented that the Carbon Dating process has some previously unknown flaws. This first came to light when Carbon Dating kept conclusively dating Egyptian mummy fibers that were known to be 3,200 years and older, as about 1,800 to 1,400 years old. After much consternation and investigation, it turns out that certain micro organisms on much material that has been dated is of much younger origins, and has dramatically skewed many results of the last several decades. The most dramatic of these were the carbon dating of the Shroud of Turin in the late 1970's, which showed it to be of the early dark ages, despite all other science showing it in fact dates earlier, and that the 3-D nature of the fibers cannot even with today's best technolgy be duplicated. So the science of an era is always subject to improvement ;) ... even carbon dating!


I have yet to find an inconsistency, except in man's own semantics, between creation and the state of the world and the universe as only God gives us the light to illuminate it. It is interesting to note that as man's knowledge expands, fewer and fewer inconsistencies remain. Ultimately, even an athiest can reason that the universe was created, and does in fact change with time.

Creation does not exclude the possiblity of change, yet I have never seen a credible theory on how the Universe can evolve from nothing. In phyiscs, examination of something called an event horizon, or ultimate horizon, at the moment of creation is quite (pardon the pun) illuminating!

"And God said... Let there be light!"
 
Just had to comment on some comments that somone made earlier, (I believe it was FL2, but apologize if it was not) which betrayed a gross misunderstanding of the theory of natural selection when they claimed that it was in some sense a sentient force directing the process of evolution. This could not be further from the truth. Natural selection simply means that some members of a population will have heritable traits that allow them to survive or reproduce more efficiently in their environment than other members, and that, because they survive and reproduce well, those traits will be passed on. There is nothing purposeful, or directed about it, and nothing that implies progress. This is mainly due to the all important phrase, "relative to environment" that so many forget.
Let's play pretend for a minute. Lets pretend that intelligence is linked to a single gene, which in one allele (let's call it B) form codes for a protein that say, catalyzes the formation of synapses in the brain. Now pretend that the other allele (let's call it b) form codes for an altered form of the protein, which is incapable of assisting synapse construction. Now pretend that intelligence is directly related to the number of synapses in the brain, and we can now say that BB or Bb individuals will be more intelligent than bb indiviudals. Now lets say tommorow the sun begins giving off some bizarre form of radiation that gives everyone brain tumors. EXCEPT, that the malformed and up to now useless version of the synapse-forming protein happens to absorb, clean, up, or otherwise blcok this radiation. All of a sudden, it is adaptive to be stupid. In such a case the human species would evolve (and quite rapidly I might add) to be stupider than it was before, because only those people with the stupid gene will survive. This is still evolution by natural selection, even though it runs counter the what we would consider evolutionary "progress". Now obviously, this example is grossly oversimplified, and exaggerated, but it serves to illustrate that the key thing to remember about adaptivity is that it is relative to environment. A trait that is adaptive to a population in one environment, might be catastrophic in another.
Forget this simple fact, and you run the risk of falling into the trap of staight-line progress evolution like those bizarrely innacurate pictures of the amoeba turning into a fish crawling out of the water and turning into several creatures before arriving at "almighty man". That type of thinking (even by people who subscirbe to the theory, but don't properly understand it) is what gives people the idea that natural selection is some sort of sentient force directing towards a given goal. Also bear in mind that in some senses, you could argue that bacteria are more evolved than us, not less, when you consider that the number of generations in the 5-8 million years since our split with our's and the chimp's common ancestor, would take a population of bacteria a mere 25 years. Are they as "advanced" in terms of complexity? Of course not. But are they adaptive to the point where they can thrive in environments that humans with all their technology couldn't dream of surviving? Absolutely.

Sorry for the super long post, and for drifting around only semi-coherently with my thoughts.
 
Pretty sick that people still have to debate this. The real question is, who created evolution?
 
Pretty sick that people still have to debate this. The real question is, who created evolution?
 
I like how scientists have carbon dated fossils back to 65 million years ago, but creationists still believe that the earth was created 6,000 years ago.
 
Originally posted by kmad
I like how scientists have carbon dated fossils back to 65 million years ago, but creationists still believe that the earth was created 6,000 years ago.

Not all creationists believe that way, only the "Young Earth" creationists do. There are other factions of creationist thought.
 
I like how scientists have carbon dated fossils back to 65 million years ago, but creationists still believe that the earth was created 6,000 years ago.
(by kmad)
Also your first sentence cannot be true. Carbon dating cannot date that many years back. Didn't you read what Becka and starlifter wrote?
 
I'm don't agree with Becka and starlifter in regards to carbon-dating. I'm no expert on carbon-dating, but my understanding was that as the frame of time grew greater the technique became more accurate not less. Kind of the way the more times you flip a coin the closer your results will tend towards a 50-50 result. Only 5000-10,000 years, you may find some inconsistancies, 5,000,000-10,000,000 years, far more accurate, but, (and I can't stress this enough) I'm no expert so I may be wrong here.
Anyway I do know that the technique is still beign refined, and is improving all the time.

But if carbon-dating is so innaccurate, how do you explain that the newer "molecular clock" technique of dating evolutionary events (basically by measuring the rate of change in the genomes of populations) gives dates that correspond (roughly) to what archaeologists have gleaned from the fossil record. When two wildy different, and unrelated techniques date an event to the same time frame, that seems to me fairly solid evidence in their favor.
 
I'm no expert on carbon-dating, but my understanding was that as the frame of time grew greater the technique became more accurate not less. Kind of the way the more times you flip a coin the closer your results will tend towards a 50-50 result. Only 5000-10,000 years, you may find some inconsistancies, 5,000,000-10,000,000 years, far more accurate, but, (and I can't stress this enough) I'm no expert so I may be wrong here.

Yes you are wrong here, the way you describe it is wrong. We learned about carbon-dating in school and I remember that carbon-dating could not be used beyond 50 000 (or was it 5000, I don't remember exactly) year old fossils. If we had a physics or chemical expert here I'm sure he could explain why. But I distinctively remember that carbon-dating had a limit.
 
But I thought it was based on the rate of decay of carbon isotopes, and measuring what percentage of them had decayed. With a longer time-frame, wouldn't the rate of decay be closer to average despite any temporary inconsistancies. What I mean is, over 5000 years, anything that would skew the measurment might be more significant than over 5 million. Like if you're off by 1000 years for a 5000 year period, that's a lot, but 1000 years in a 5 million year period isn't that bigt a deal one way or the other.

Although wait a sec... what's the half-life of carbon anyway? Maybe somone should start a thread about this so we can hopefully hear from somone who really knows what they're talking about on this suject.
Although I find it hard to believe that scientists would continue to rely on a technique that had been proved inaccurate.
 
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