Creation vs Evolution

[Perfection]

Response to stupid question: Yes they do reproduce

Response to follow-up stupid question: They divide like cells

Response to stupid follow-up to my earlier stupid follow-up: Yes they do but not to as great of an extent as humans because mitochondria never go through sexual reproduction and so only mutations can occur causing similar mitochondrial DNA through humans.

Response to one last vastly ignorant stupid question: You are correct that it would be different and so it really doesn't count tworads evolution or agianst it.

"It's only paranoid if it isn't true. Additionally, IIRC, not all scientists have backed the Darwinian Synthesis, or whatever it is being called these days. I might even go so far as to point out that ever since the ToE was embraced by the intellegentsia, they have gone out of their way to develop and use every tactic that Nazi Germany later perfected to propagandize its own agenda and scapegoat its opposition:"

What motive would scientists have to spread evolution if it wasn't true? And what propaganda? It couldn't be much worse than some of the creationist propaganda I've seen.

 

[Ado]

Perfection has given the pretty basic correct answers for most of your questions, but in the spirit of fair play I am now in the process of putting together a more detailed response FearlessLeader2 so if you would bear with me...

Mitochondrial DNA is very much a tool useful in explainingand supporting evolution and my answer will encorporate it. I work in the School of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology at the Australian National University, so I have a fair few pro-evoluitonist on hand!!

Ado

 

[newfangle]

FL2, the mitochondrial DNA in humans is the same throughout, as it is contributed by one cell (the ovum) and is reproduced asexually.

 

[Becka]

And what propaganda? It couldn't be much worse than some of the creationist propaganda I've seen.

http://riceinfo.rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/ghetto.htm

This kind.


I'm telling you, if there is ANYTHING that put me off evolution for good (if there was any doubt) it was THIS page. I don't know where this person is from, but I have never encountered some roving "gang" of creationists going around and intimidating people who don't believe in it.

 

[newfangle]

Originally posted by Ado
Perfection has given the pretty basic correct answers for most of your questions, but in the spirit of fair play I am now in the process of putting together a more detailed response FearlessLeader2 so if you would bear with me...

Mitochondrial DNA is very much a tool useful in explainingand supporting evolution and my answer will encorporate it. I work in the School of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology at the Australian National University, so I have a fair few pro-evoluitonist on hand!!

Ado

Ado, I am just curious in what field you work in. I also work in a Biochem and Molecular Biology Lab. More specifically: Proteomic Mass Spec and Protein-Protein interactions.

 

[Perfection]

Originally posted by Becka
I'm telling you, if there is ANYTHING that put me off evolution for good (if there was any doubt) it was THIS page. I don't know where this person is from, but I have never encountered some roving "gang" of creationists going around and intimidating people who don't believe in it.

I agree that sometimes people can become hostile to people who don't see the universe in their way, but I've seen creationists who have acted very similar and don't believe it is confined only to evolution. And anyways you shouldn't discount a theory just because of propaganda that a small minority of evoultionists put out.

 

[Ado]

Originally posted by newfangle


Ado, I am just curious in what field you work in. I also work in a Biochem and Molecular Biology Lab. More specifically: Proteomic Mass Spec and Protein-Protein interactions.

I'm actually the IT person for the School, but I am studying both biology and archeaology part-time. I've pretty much brought the School to a stand-still with this topic!! I've just had a 45 minute "afternoon tea" which ended up involving 5 of the academics, as well as another 4 that have come to see me in my office to state their understanding!!

I promised I would post something meaty as soon as I can, one thing that has come up today is that mitochondrial DNA is most useful over shorter evolutionary paths, certain proteins are better for longer paths, but I'll explain why later. The questions posted by FearlessLeader2 are good ones regardless of the tone and deserve the "evolutionists most correct reply", those creationists that choose to read it may do with the info as they please, the collating of my post is as much for me as for FL2.

PS - I promise it won't be too long!!

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

I don't "believe" in evolution because it is not something you can decide to believe in, like God. It is a fact, like gravity. We have watched organisms evolve in recorded time.

I believe any government that wants its scientific development to proceed needs to "force" evolution on people the same way it forces mathematics, physics, geology, etc.

If anyone can come up with a "use" for scientific creationism besides "proving creationism", I guess we could use that too.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Perfection
Response to one last vastly ignorant stupid question: You are correct that it would be different and so it really doesn't count tworads evolution or agianst it.

Thank you for acknowledging my objections.

Originally posted by Perfection
"It's only paranoid if it isn't true. Additionally, IIRC, not all scientists have backed the Darwinian Synthesis, or whatever it is being called these days. I might even go so far as to point out that ever since the ToE was embraced by the intellegentsia, they have gone out of their way to develop and use every tactic that Nazi Germany later perfected to propagandize its own agenda and scapegoat its opposition:"

What motive would scientists have to spread evolution if it wasn't true? And what propaganda? It couldn't be much worse than some of the creationist propaganda I've seen.

Motive? How about plain and simple greed? Yes, that's right. money. There are vast sums of money out there waiting to be granted to the controversial and edgy researchers. Back in Darwin's time, he WAS the edge. When Origins was published, the man was assaulted from all sides at the outset, but there has always been a class of society that considers itself smarter, better educated, more refined, and just plain better than everyone else, and that subset refers to itself as the intelligentsia, and the world reciprocates.

While even these elitist snobs certainly balked at first at the idea of being 'descended from apes', when they saw how the 'great unwashed' took it, they realized that they could hop on the EDGE and be snottily superior for centuries in all likelihood. From there it was a simple matter of making it clear to researchers that the grant money was going to men of science that were on the Darwin train, and the rest is history.

The simple fact is, evolution is a fad that hasn't died yet, and is not likely to, because it sticks in the craw of anyone with a lick of common sense, and those people are the types that the intelligentsia like to make fun of and consider themselves superior to, so the money keeps flowing to the evolutionary biologists, and will continue to do so, no matter how many frauds they get caught at.

(Now THAT's a long sentence!)

 

[Perfection]

WHOA, looks like someone is getting a little paranoid. I can see the point that evolution has a number of flaws. But to outright attack evolutionary biologists is just plain stupid. Do you really believe that thousands of biologists teach something that has no proof and is agianst their core beliefs. I think your getting a little overzelous here, please try to keep your arguements reasonable and informative not just a slanderous attack on a large group of people.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

No, no, no. Ever the poor marksman, you keep missing the point. It's not the evo-bios that are at fault, it's the elitist snobs that refuse to fund anyhting else, so they can pat each other on the back, call themselves progressive, and feel superior to those of us that acknowledge a higher power. Evo-bios exist because someone has to claim all that money being offered. It's capitalism, pure and simple. Someone put profit in evolution research, and the market kow-towed as it always does to profit. Creat a demand, and supply will fall all over itself rushing to fill the void.

Do we fault the farmer for growing food because people want to eat? Why then should we fault the evo-bio for researching what the money-granters want researched?

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Funding what else, Fearless Leader 2?

What do you want them to fund?

And by the way, evolutionism isn't Godlessness, something that bothers me when I hear it. Even the Pope recently acknowledge that belief in evolution is not incompatible with religion. Why don't you think that perhaps God is the driving force of evolution, or the creator who set it all in motion?

People who fund science go with what they have seen produces results.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Funding what else, Fearless Leader 2?

What do you want them to fund?

How about the hard sciences, like astronomy and physics. You know, the legitimate sciences, that show their math and live up to the demand for that little thing call incontrovertible evidence?

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
And by the way, evolutionism isn't Godlessness, something that bothers me when I hear it. Even the Pope recently acknowledge that belief in evolution is not incompatible with religion. Why don't you think that perhaps God is the driving force of evolution, or the creator who set it all in motion?

As a matter of fact, I consider what most call evolution to be nothing more than God's fingerprints on Creation, and the fact that species suddenly become different without leaving behind fossils is ample evidence of that. The missingl link fossils won't be found, for the simple reason that the missing link is God.

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
People who fund science go with what they have seen produces results.

Results? What results ever came out of evolution? All I've seen are bits of rock and fossilised bone, hoaxes, frauds, and mountains of paperwork. Results like those I have no use for whatsoever. Now the space program, there's some results. Microwaves, freeze-dried foods, dehydrated foods, microgravity-grown crystals, PCs, miniturized electronics, an American flag on the moon, Velcro. That's what I call results. Let's quit throwing money into the cesspool called evolution, and give the space program the money it needs to end world hunger, overpopulation, the energy crisis, and resource depletion forever.

Results. He says he wants results, and what is he promoting funding research for? Effing monkeys. Whatever happened to common sense?

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Precious.

However, very little money is thrown at evolutionary biology compared to "the space program" or physics projects. Just enough to breed dogs and racehorses, genetically modify food plants (yes ending world hunger is part of evolutionary biology, not the space program... wierdo!), fight those diseases like AIDS which have evolved in recent memory, etc. etc.

The effing monkeys are window dressing. The human evolution archeologists/paleontologists get a pretty small part of funding, much less than goes to other science or to churches for that matter.

Don't be afraid of evolution. No one is trying to be snobby to you. Although you seem to be pretty good at the snappy comebacks...

 

[HotDog Fish]

Hey! FL2! I just got back from my little reprieve and you insult! I'm sorry if I offened you! But anyways umm...I'll just leave this to Perfection, Sultan and Newfangle, this debate is getting a bit 'rough' for my tastes! But anyways I beleive religion and science can live perfectly hand in hand. I'm a Buddhist and I still beleive in evolution, it's simply based on the way somebody perceive and comprhend things!

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Precious.

However, very little money is thrown at evolutionary biology compared to "the space program" or physics projects. Just enough to breed dogs and racehorses, genetically modify food plants (yes ending world hunger is part of evolutionary biology, not the space program... wierdo!), fight those diseases like AIDS which have evolved in recent memory, etc. etc.

Hydroponics.
Heat, cold, air, and water resistant packaging.
Irradiated foods with shelf life measured in years and decades.
Health monitoring systems and diagnostic devices that allow doctors on earth to diagnose and prescribe treatments for patients in orbit.
Water reclamation systems with near 100% efficiency.
Climate-control technology that can make areas that are exposed to temperatures ranging from -271C to 200C comfortable.

Results.

Real. Meaningful. Useful. Results.

The space program is a catalyst for real research in every branch of science. It drives invention by creating its own necessities in advance of global neccessity, giving us technologies before the whole world needs them, instead of forcing us to do without while science plays catch-up.

The rest of your post contained rancor that I do not intend to dignify with comment.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by HotDog Fish
Hey! FL2! I just got back from my little reprieve and you insult! I'm sorry if I offened you! But anyways umm...I'll just leave this to Perfection, Sultan and Newfangle, this debate is getting a bit 'rough' for my tastes! But anyways I beleive religion and science can live perfectly hand in hand. I'm a Buddhist and I still beleive in evolution, it's simply based on the way somebody perceive and comprhend things!

If you perceive something I posted as insulting to you, please quote it for me and I will either apologize or explain, as appropriate.

 

[HotDog Fish]

Ohh, it's ok, I was just a bit dizzy (looooooooooong story) I think, I beleive it was the last post on page 6. But anyways I'm probably blowing everything out of proportion! Well I'll read this thread but most likely not post in very much

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Ah. Well, then, that explains it. Your post directly above it supports a post that is deliberately misleading, and includes a blatant falsehood. I admit I could have worded myself differently, but I was feeling all... well, you know. Sorry if you took it more seriously than I intended. I'm a bit defensive in topics like this, because I usually have a big old bullseye on me, and everyone is taking their best shot.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

What you wont dignify the parts where I clearly explain where evolutionary biology has helped us? Okay. That's just as well.

Why don't you call up any hundred scientists from the space program and ask them whether evolutionary biology is a valid science or not.

You can not choose to disregard part of science just because it interferes with your religious belief, and then claim to be yourself in anyway useful to the cause of science. Topple evolution, and the space program goes with it. You would have us living in the Taliban style state, I guess.

Thank you for not responding further.