Criticise these alternate traits

[Munch]

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers
no this is to powerfull, +50% is max, otherwise this traits means 'your first build must be a settler'

I'm not sure I agree with this, because the production bonus only applies to hammers, not to food. If you build a settler straight away, then only 1, maybe 2 hammers will get the multiplier. I think you would be better off improving tiles first - such as mines - and then building a string of settlers, each very quickly because of more hammers being multiplied.

- +2 per city
instead of +2H a +1 food on city tile (to get 3F in most cases) could represent the 'expandability' (in the early game I often hesitate to build a city because it wont grow)

Interesting idea, but beyond the scope of xml methinks. A similar idea - which is possible - is to grant a +1 bonus to tiles with n . Probably overpowered anyway.

Fin
- +15% per city
- Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House
Such a trait sucks ^^ and the +15% would be indexed upon the tax slider. (its stronger if you get 100% tax than if you get only 10% tax).

I'm not sure that it doth suck. It might be weak - it's certainly weaker than the classic Financial - but it does have significant strengths in rapidly building up your economic infrastructure. True, it does depend mainly on how much you put into the tax slider, and that was what I was going for. Previously Financial was more powerful in terms of being a scientific trait than a money-making one. I've tried playing with this new Financial, and the bonus 15% is quite a lot. At the time when most empires are gonig bankrupt (i.e. around the time courthouses and markets begin appearing), you are continuing at a reasonable pace, and can then build markets and grocers rapidly to bolster your economy.

Consider: You are researching rifling, and are going to be the first civ to get it. You plan to mass upgrade your experienced City Raider macemen to rifles, and lean your might heavily upon some unfortunate neighbour. THIS is the time when you slow your research down, and build up cash (+15%) rapidly - even more rapidly with this trait. It gets you a lot of cash, particularly when you can whip the economic buildings cheaply.

Ind
- +1 on tiles with 3
- Double Speed: Workers
Hard to say here... would this be balanced ? i dont think so but not sure :/
I'd rather say +1H on mines.

I don't think +1 on mines is possible for including in traits. I'm leaning towards saying that this trait is currently overpowered. Thanks flor the input ... playtesting is required!

 

[King of Town]

So you're basically just making every trait super powered? There need to be bad traits to balance out people with great uu's and ub's. As you have the prat's are going to be coming off the line needing less xp to promote, and will be built faster. Well that's if anyone plays rome anymore since obviously pericles will be the most played leader.

 

[Silence101]

I'm just posting to follow this thread.

Munch, your changes really make sense and seem a lot more realistic. My biggest concern when making changes on this scale has to do with balance. I don't have much to add right now, but I'm interested in following peoples comments and how well it play tests.

 

[Seven05]

I've done some similar changes and tested them extensively, and you've given me some ideads for the traits I was unsure of what to do with

For industious, +1 per tile with 3 is definately too powerful, I learned that quickly. +1 per tile with 4 works briliantly.

For financial I went with +50% trade route yield, well sort of, it's 50% of the trade route yield in commerce which although it sounds the same is actually very different. This strips away the insane advantage of financial coastal cities in the early game and then gives it right back in the mid and late game. It definately doesn't make the trait suck, it just slows down early game research which is something I wanted.

I tried the +1 food per tile with x food for expansive and it didn't work well at all. It ends up being either too good or completely useless, frequently both in the same game

One of the problems with the traits is related to a problem with the way Civ4 was designed. You have 'yields' (hammers, food & commerce) and commerce sub types (culture, research, gold & espionage) which is fine. However, since you have things that generate commerce sub types (e.g. +2 beakers) AND those that work as modifiers (e.g. +25% gold) AND the player controlled slider a bunch of things get way out of allignment very quickly. It also creates the (unwanted for me) effect of running at 100% research and still generating gold or running at 0% research and still making discoveries. So you change to financial would work well most of the time but would have the indirect effect of making holy cities even better for financial civs than they are for spiritual civs and making a few specific corporations (namely Sid's Sushi) even more potent than they already are, and not just in the HQ cities.

Of course, now that you've started, before you know it you'll be changing all sorts of things

 

[jpinard]

Why not do +50% production speed on National Wonders instead of World Wonders? It seems World Wonders should be on a level playing field...

 

[gettingfat]

Aggressive rather nerfed (I'll take half-cost barracks vs nukes anyday). I think philosophical is fine as it is right now, so probably there's no need to spice it up with the bonus beakers. I have a feeling the Ind trait could be rather overpowered if properly used, especially in the 2nd half of game.

 

[Mesix]

If it's possible to implement, I've always thought that the aggressive leaders should get extra happiness when they are winning a war and experience peace weariness when they do not go to war. It would create a different sort of game experience for aggressive leaders (and if the AI understood the bonus, it wuold make them more aggressive).

I agree that the increased production of nukes/ICBMs is not of much value. Not only does this only come into affect in the late stages of the game, it is also not very historically accurate for the leaders that it affects. Alexander the Great and Tokugawa never had nukes. Maybe they would in modern day, but the aggressive trait seems like it should mature earlier to give these leaders their significance early on. Perhaps speed up production of earlier units like melee units (imagine Tokugawa producing samurai twice as fast...ouch!). Perhaps make unit maintainence cheaper so that aggressive leaders can build and support larger armies early on.

 

[intj_rational]

Hi. This is an interesting thread. Here are some of my suggestions:

Aggressive
- Double Production of Barracks
- Free Combat I Promotion for Melee, Mounted, Archery, Gunpowder units
- Free City Raider I Promotion for Siege units (might make this trait too powerful)

Industrious
- +50% Production of Workers
- Double Production of Forge, Factory

Organized
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- -50% Unit Upkeep and Unit Supply Costs
- Double Production of Courthouse, Jail

Imperialistic (Same as what Munch suggested except for double production of Jail)


I think that the Protective trait is very well done, same thing for Philosophical. Charismatic is ok, but something just isnt completely right with Creative and Spiritual. But anyway, it's a good start to better ideas.

 

[CaptainMidnight]

So yes, I think +1 on 3 is overpowered. If it were reduced to requiring 4 on a tile, and you were allowed double production speed of Forge and Factory, do you think this would be more balanced?

I think you'll find that giving BOTH forges and factories would make it by far the most powerful trait, even with your other traits beefed up.

 

[Quildavyr]

This traits would make Hattie a goddess!

 

[Nay]

Fin
- +15% per city
- Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House

Horribly overpowered if you ask me.

seriously, 5 buildings?

 

[Anastase]

multiposting, sorry.

 

[Anastase]

hey! Great work. Here are some tweeks I think could help!

Agg
- Double Speed: Tactical Nuke, ICBM
- Free Promotion (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Armoured units
- +1 for 8 turns in each city each time you declare war.

Cha
- No Anarchy
- +100% production for National Wonders
- +1 for: Colosseum, Broadcast Tower
- No revolt when you conquer a city.


Cre
- +10% culture: per city
- +50% production for World Wonders
- Double Speed: Theatre

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers
- +2 per city
- Double Speed: Granary, Aqueduct

Fin
- +15% per city
- Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House
- +50% income from trade routes
- +1 trade routes in each city
Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Exp needed for unit promotions
- +100% Great General points
- +1 happiness in all your cities for every 3 cities you control


Ind
- +10% hammers on each city
- Double Speed: Workers

Org
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Speed: Courthouse, Intelligence Agency
- each city gets +2

Phi
- +100% points
- +5% per city
- Double Speed: University

Pro
- Double Speed: Castle, Bomb Shelter, Security Bureau
- +1 for: Walls, Bunker
- Free Promotion (City Garrison I): Archer, Gunpowder units
- +50% Domestic Great General points

Spi
- +2 per city
- Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals
- +1 for temple, monastery, cathedral.

 

[dragodon64]

I think every trait should have exactly two (2) half-price buildings

Agg- Barracks, Stable
Fin- Markets, Grocers
Ind- Forges, Factories
Org- Courthouses, Aqueducts
Spi- Temples, Cathedrals
Phi- Observatory, University
Cre- Theatres, Libraries
Exp- Granary, Harbors
Cha- Coliseums, Broadcast Towers
Pro- Walls, Castles
Imp- Customs Houses, Jail

I'm not sure about the stable, aqueducts, observatories, broadcast towers. By not sure, I mean I'm open to suggestions.

 

[gettingfat]

I personally don't see the merit of having each trait with exactly two half-priced buildings. First, some buildings are way more important than other (e.g. courthouses and aqueducts better than walls and castles). The other half of the trait bonus are also not of equal value, so I think it's only fair if the overall packages are matched.

 

[Munch]

So you're basically just making every trait super powered? There need to be bad traits to balance out people with great uu's and ub's. As you have the prat's are going to be coming off the line needing less xp to promote, and will be built faster. Well that's if anyone plays rome anymore since obviously pericles will be the most played leader.

I'm not aiming to make the traits all super powerful, but I am aiming to make them balanced. The general consensus is that the original Imperialistic and Protective traits are poor, and I have tried to make them more on par with the other traits. You have a point that praetorians will be "coming off the line needing less xp to promote", as will all units built by Imperialistic leaders - they won't be built faster unless you choose Augustus. The fact that praetorians are themselves overpowered (in your opinion - not that I disagree) is a separate point. Your point about Pericles comes down to the age-old Phi-Ind discussion; I see how this could be exploited, and am open to suggestions for possibly 'nerfing' this World Wonder -> Great Person cycle.

Why not do +50% production speed on National Wonders instead of World Wonders? It seems World Wonders should be on a level playing field...

Very interesting idea, making World Wonders equal speed for all. Other changes would have to be incorporated to adjust for this...

Aggressive rather nerfed (I'll take half-cost barracks vs nukes anyday). I think philosophical is fine as it is right now, so probably there's no need to spice it up with the bonus beakers. I have a feeling the Ind trait could be rather overpowered if properly used, especially in the 2nd half of game.

I agree that my Ind (and I suppose Phi) are overpowered. I'm writing an updated version based on everyones' feedback. Ind will become +1 on 4 , but it needs something else too. I'm thinking double speed forge and factory, possibly removing the double speed workers.

 

[The_Reckoning]

Financial should have +1 to windmills, workshops and waterwheels.

I'd also like to see Agg with +2 exp instead of a free promotion.

Expansive should have something like -25% cottage growth time.

 

[Diamondeye]

Financial should have +1 to windmills, workshops and waterwheels.

I'd also like to see Agg with +2 exp instead of a free promotion.

Expansive should have something like -25% cottage growth time.

Fin is good as it is

Why nerf Agg?

Agree with Exp.

 

[dragodon64]

I don't think that all the traits should be equal. If a player wants a harder game, but not to the extent of moving up a difficulty level, why not just take a couple of weak traits instead of you're usual strong ones. Not all civs will be created equal, that's an unavoidable fact.

 

[BoydofZINJ]

I do like this idea... I am currently working on a MOD... I may have to use this.... IF I MAY!