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Criticise these alternate traits

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Munch, Nov 14, 2007.

  1. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    surely you mean +1 commerce in plots producing 4.

    morale is the GG promotion that gives +1 movement point. i get that free on all melee, gunpowder, mounted, and armor units? charge me +200% civic upkeep and i'll still sign the dotted line. i'd actually start a war for once if i had that trait! :lol:

    oh man, picture shaka's impis travelling 3 with mobility :eek:
     
  2. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

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    pretty good actually
     
  3. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    so even before i know currency, i just assign some population to work as citizen specialists and they each earn 2 :gold:? overpowered that early imo, but nifty if i'm going broke!

    and i think this one is 48,000 times more overpowered :lol:. i can control happiness levels in each city individually, like hiring entertainers in the old versions, without spending time making buildings or learning any techs. but it's better, because i still get the normal benefits i'd be getting from the specialists anyway. the best policy may well be to let your best cities grow over happy cap since this lets you basically ignore the happy cap without losing commerce empire-wide by running the luxury slider, and without needing a zillion warriors for military police. your biggest cities are probably big because they're good cities anyway, so chances are specialists won't be wasted there. i'd love to be able to use this trait, mind you, but i think it's completely out of whack even from that one aspect, without considering the other bonuses it gets.
     
  4. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    I'm wondering why everybody is just enamored with the notions of using drawbacks and sometimes ridiculous numbers of extra production on buildings. Maybe it's just the fact that I like to keep it simple.

    Having a trait dedicated to production in the sense of extra hammers is an interesting throwback to Civ3 (didn't Industrious provide extra shields in that game?). Not to mention...Imperialistic needs a serious boost, and I'm afraid my feeble double production on monuments, though fitting, is not nearly enough. How about double production on workers or settlers, or whatever that trait is given?

    EDIT: Kmad summed up some of my views of the above traits.
     
  5. GT_OKEZ

    GT_OKEZ Warlord

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    Well I'll agree and disagree with you permanoob .

    I think the way I tweaked financial is fine . The currency thing is a weak argument since you can already earn gold before currency . On top of that , gold( along with other metals) was a universal currency before the invention of paper money . :D

    Basically you loose the commerce bonus but gain back in raw gold . +2:gold: isn't overdoing it since the trait is purely focused on gold and nothing else . Financial is it not ?


    About the +1 :) / specialist . Thinking about it , it
    'could be' somewhat overpowered but its already kinda used in the game already in the form of HR civic . Whats the real difference in assigning a :) specialist and a :) military unit to ' ignore' the happiness cap ?
    Benifits from the specialist , well sure , but HR gives you the benifit of having actual troops to defend/attack . Standard specialist arn't soldiers and can't dispach even a barbarian warrior . :lol:
    Don't forget about the health cap either . Unhealthiness will come back and bite you .

    Anyway , I am not entirely sure of you can give specialists :) bonuses . I'll have to look that up .


    If we were to tweak it again , would something like below be more acceptable ??

    Charismatic :

    • No Anarchy
    • +1 :) / city
    • +1 :) from monument + broadcast tower
    • +1 Diplomacy
    • Double production : Monument + broadcast tower
     
  6. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    I think a grand total of +3 happiness for most of the game is enough for a trait, but you are also adding a diplomatic bonus (albeit a tiny one) and the major part of the Spiritual trait. The double-production buildings are just excessively good.

    But then again, if all the traits look like that, then it becomes "balanced". I suppose there are two ways of going about the leader traits...the minimalist style I mentioned above, or the heavily-modified version espoused by some of our fellow posters. You would probably have to adjust handicaps, tech costs, and inflation (stuff like that) to get the game pace smoothed out again.
     
  7. GT_OKEZ

    GT_OKEZ Warlord

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    Ahh the simple man . You make a lot of sense but having ' dull ' traits like you suggest really make the game mundane and not wide ranging . If a leader had basic simple traits then there wouldn't be enough of difference between leaders and thats what makes the game so great and diverse in my opinion . Just about any leader you play , you play differently and you have many to choose from , thats the wonderful thing about Civ4 .

    But again , I tend to agree with permanoob about the :) specialist thing . Though its already done with HR basically , it basically is the samething as HR with slight differences .

    I think this :

    No Anarchy
    +1 / city
    +1 from monument + broadcast tower
    +1 Diplomacy
    Double production : Monument + broadcast tower

    ... is a good suggestion . You basically only get 2 :) in the beggining with an opportunity for a 3rd later in the game . The big thing here is No Anarchy which fits a Cha leader much better than a Spiritual leader IMO .

    But I gave spiritual a huge make up for that as well .

    No missionary limit
    Double production of missionaries, temples , monastaries , special religious buildings ( i.e. synogogues , mosques , mandirs , etc) .

    Half priced religious structures which give you nice boosts and you can spread your religion to your hearts content with the unlimited missionaries making spiritual , well , really spiritual ( in the religious sense at least which I think is implied in the game .)

    Potential here for lots of happiness + money , I don't see it as a draw back and actually a fair trade for no-anarchy .
     
  8. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    My changes would be... well most of my cahnges would require a SDK Mod lol

    Fin

    - +1C to Trade routes for every 5pop.
    - 100% Production Banks

    Basically for every trade route you have you get plus so and so raw commerce after trade route multipliers have been calculated onto base trade route commerce

    eg - 1C (base trade route commerce) +100% overseas trade = 2C + 2C from having a size 10 city. = 4C (total)

    Also I think you can only have 5 Trade routes at any point in time in the game, 6 if you're Hannibal Carthage with his UB (Hope I spell his Civ name correctly) and assuming on average the max size of a city is 20 Pop, you get a max amount of 16C, 20C with Hannibal.

    The methods of getting 5 trade routes are...

    (Early game Coastal Cities only)

    Base + Great Lighthouse + Currency + Castle/Free Market

    or

    (Late Game)
    Base + Currency + Corporations + Free Market + Airport.

    I realize any other trade route bonuses are exploitable especially in MP where you would close boarders and the Fin Civ player would be worse off and any gold bonus is too reliant on the tax slider.

    Imp

    - +100% GG
    - +50% Prouduction Settlers
    - -50% War weariness
    - -50% Unit Upgrades

    I added Less War weariness and unit upgrades because it works well with the constant war required to maximize GG production.

    Some of you may think it's overpowered if you somehow get the Pyramids in the early game and Police state.

    Not really when you compare the opportunity cost of not running representation, (figure it out for yourself it's pretty obvious) and also there's a limit to how much you can conquer pre COLs, not to mention the high maintenance cost of the PL civic.

    Pro
    - Trait stays the same, Castles now obsolete with Corporations.

    I generally see the AI with a decent counter attack SOD and I'd prefer them to attack me within my own boarders so I'd suffer less WW and if they can, I like to see them suicide their stack on my CG3 boarder city I generally save quite a few Flanking Mounted units to knock off their siege... if only someone programed the AI to use Spies for city revolt missions lol.

    Protective's true weakness in my opinion has to do with their Cheap builds that obsolete quickly, Walls obsolete with Rifling and Castles with Economics. I consider walls and castles 1 building because you need to build walls before castles and since the castle lifespan is so short I never build them so i decided to extend their lifespan.

    Another Improvement to castles could possibly be a tourism improvement which kicks in once you've researched flight which gives you +100% Commerce to trade routes.

    Cre
    - +1 Culture
    - +100% Culture
    - +100% Production to Theater, Colosseum and Library

    I always thought it was silly that the creative trait wasn't good at cultural victories, even though the trait is cultural orientated, I figure a change like this would make it more useful in the culture race. If the 100% Culture (similar to free speech) is overpowered I'll consider removing cheap theaters, their already cheap anyways at a cost of 50 hammers.

    Org

    - -20% maintenance
    - Cheap Lighthouse, Courthouse and Factory

    the -20% maintenance would be similar to Shaka's UB

    Exp
    - +3 Health
    - +25% Production to workers
    - 100% production Granary and Harbor

    Just a minor change to balance out the nerf to workers.

    Phil. Cha, Agg, Ind
    and Spi are left unchanged. Although I may consider giving a minor boost Spi because it's been indirected nerfed by Golden ages and CR wonder. Maybe a +50% Golden Ages, give them a longer golden age because they can't benefit from anarchy free civics switch because they already have that bonus.
     
  9. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    well you can't "produce" gold with hammers, or use merchant specialists to earn gold, until you research specific techs (currency, or CoL for caste system). so you can earn gold with the slider, but you can't right now make gold on turn #5 the way you could with your trait is what i mean. now i couldn't feasibly run a citizen specialist on turn 5 anyway, but there are times when a 3rd city would come in awfully handy and that 2 :gold: from a citizen before those techs could make the difference. or when capturing cities early on. *giggle* when you capture enemy cities, while the population waits to be whipped away but has no tiles to work, they'd be earning you gold!

    it's financial, you're right. i just think that part is really strong really early. it's only that overpowered (imo) for that short time period before those techs, but i wanted to throw it out there for thought.

    right, but i can still get the benefit of troops besides the happiness without HR, i just don't have to build them until i need 'em *giggle*.

    i guess i do see HR as quite different, since:
    - you have to research Monarchy or build the Pyramids to have it as an option.
    - you're making a civic choice to use it. you might not have other choices at first, but eventually you do.
    - you pay civic upkeep for it, but more than that, you pay unit maintenance costs for the police.
    - you have to find a way to keep things under control if you do need to use those police outside of the cities they were calming down.

    so yes it lets you ignore the happy cap too, in its way, but it has downsides to balance it out some. i don't see any built in to the specialist system, if it counts even citizen specialists (the white-hat one :hammers: dudes) as specialists.

    don't even talk to me about :yuck: issues! BtS is terrible! i am completely incapable of ignoring toxic green clouds so i just have a horrible time late game in BtS since the health problems are disgusting now :cry:. it makes my cities look so ugly. and you see how brilliant i am at posting ideas of my own, right? as in, i don't, cuz i'm not! all i do is type too many words about other people's ideas ;). i like that y'all are creative enough to give me stuff to think about.

    i so totally don't think your religious stuff is a fair trade for no-anarchy but that's 100% personal bias so we won't even go there. spiritual is my favorite trait so i don't think anybody messing with it will please me. if there was a trait that all it was, was "No Anarchy", with no cheap buildings, no nothing else, that would have been my favorite trait in vanilla/warlords. now in BtS, with CR and Golden Ages making that a bit less powerful then yes i want the full spiritual and not just that part of it :lol:, but i mean you do not have any idea how much i love the existing spiritual trait.
     
  10. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    This thread has taken on a life of its own - I love it! Keep those ideas coming.

    By all means please use some, none, or all of my mod in your own work; acknowledgement would be nice though.

    Yes Cha probably does need a boost, and Pro getting better air or naval units might be nice, but Pro already has the most complex and varied bonuses.

    That's exactly why I chose these three units to get the boost for Agg - they can't defend!
     
  11. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    Very good points; I agree this is undesirable, and am aiming to address this in the next version. Simplicity!

    That's practically my philosophy too. It is difficult to decide how the main features of a trait balance though, and that's why I wanted everyones' feedback. For instance, how does my Imperialistic main (-25% exp for promos and +100% GG points) compare with Creative (+2 :culture: per city and +50% WW production); of course it's entirely dependent upon your situation, so it's very hard to say. For my next build, I am going to try and keep fast buildings and happiness generating buildings to a minimum, but of course will need everyones' feedback again.

    Here's my $0.02 (~£0.01) concerning your suggestions:

    Very similar to the originals as you say. You've boosted Fin by one building but kept some other traits the same; I was always of the opinion that Fin is already the best trait (certainly with respect to being easy to leverage for maximum benefit), so I don't agree with you on this. I never liked the Firaxis idea of fast factories for Org, as that would sit far nicer on your Ind trait, which would do well with a late game boost like this (my honest opinion of the Firaxis Ind is that it's nice if you are already ahead or on par with tech, as otherwise there won't be any wonders for you to build; as such it needs some benefit if you don't have wonders available). In my own version, to counter for removing the fast factories from Org, I gave them fast Intelligence Agencies. That was almost an arbitrary decision.. something like airports or public transport would also sit reasonably well on Org. I like double speed monuments for Imp, but I still think it's the weakest trait here. Pretty good boost to Pro/Spi/Cre/Agg, too.
     
  12. Silence101

    Silence101 King

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    Oops - typo. You're right... it's commerce.

    I was going to do the free commando promotion! :eek:
    Then I realized that I could move knights 9 spaces over enemy territory... I thought the +1 movement instead was more balanced.

    I haven't play tested it yet... (I didn't give Shaka the trait - he's still AGG/EXP). You may be right - it's a work in progress. If it still turns out to be too powerful, I may have to dumb it down a little. My main concern is still that the morale promotion to mounted units part of it might be a little OP.
     
  13. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    That boost to Financial was a mis-post...I had done some changes, then I thought I undid them all, but left that extra double-production building in there. My mistake.

    Personally, I don't care for Industrious at all, but since so many people swear by it on these forums and say its a favorite and is strong, I haven't touched it yet. So, right now, it's unchanged. Introducing a new feature for it may be excessive, although an additional double production building may work. Personally, I liked the fact that Firaxis divided up the production-enhancing buildings between Industrious and Organized, and I will likely retain that demarcation.

    The Imperialistic trait, for trial only in the Beta, is getting +100% on settlers and double production on monuments, making it the ultra early-land-grab trait. We'll see how the AI handles it...so, here is the modified Imperialistic trait:

    Imperialistic
    +100% Great General Emergence
    +100% Production on Settlers
    Double Production on Monuments


    @GT_OKEZ: I don't think my trait suggestions or design motif is dull, but rather having two or three traits that affect happiness is (that was proposed on a previous page). Part of the constraints that I am working with is the design philosophy of the AMM (Antilogic Minimal Mod), which I tout as the mod you already know how to play. For that reason, no major changes to the "primary functions" of the traits have changed, just a few details for balancing. However, I don't think that is a drawback. One of the things Firaxis did well, I think, was giving a few solid benefits and no drawbacks. That way, it's not too complicated to figure out, but each trait is still distinct, has flavor, and different strategies associated with them. A perfect example is Philosophical and Financial, one which only has 2 benefits and the other with only 1. However, these strengths are in very different areas, despite focusing essentially on your economic well-being. What I don't want to see is the "Castle" of Civ traits...the building that Firaxis keeps giving oddball bonuses to try and make it worth using, but nobody selects it, so it becomes more and more complicated until it is sheerly ridiculous.

    This design scheme was also used with great success for Civics. Plus, if all the traits have so many more double-production buildings or stuff like that, the pace of the game will change. My goal is to keep the same pace of the game while just rebalancing. Needless to say, that restricts my options just a little.

    In any case, I'd want more feedback before making any more changes to my current setup.
     
  14. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

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    Imperialistic
    +100% Great General Emergence
    +100% Production on Settlers
    Double Production on Jails

    sounds better to me

    an "imperalistic" leader throwing those who dissent to a war in jail sounds much more in line with imperialism, then monument building (more cultural or religious imo)
     
  15. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    I believe monuments are a good fit, because Imperialism is not just about locking up dissenters, but glorifying the empire. Monuments reflect this sense of "national/cultural" pride.
     
  16. GoodGame

    GoodGame Red, White, & Blue, baby!

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    How about:

    Strategic:
    half-cost / double-speed
    Barracks, Castle, ICBM, fort improvements
    +25% chance of Great general (25% less experience needed)

    Charismatic:
    +1 happy, +1 happy with coliseum
    +100% national wonders
    half-speed to build Palace, and alternative Palaces (including Versailles wonder).

    Industrious:
    +1 hammer on all tiles that generate 2 hammers or more
    +1 gold on all tiles that generate 2 gold or more

    Financial:
    +25% gold in all cities (basically a free marketplace).
    +5 free military units (units are volunteer privateers with equivalence to letters of marque).


    Definitely don't monkey with Settler/Worker build speed, as they have been tweaked over every single expansion pack.
    Overall keep traits kind of simple, generally about 2 bonuses, to keep it easy to exploit them.

     
  17. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    I find most of these suggestions unneccisarly complicated and vastly overpowered - I find the OPs suggestions rather good, though.
     
  18. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    It's just too irresistible for some guys to just try and throw about 4 or 5 different ideas together for a trait. Firaxis did well to only select one or two major features for each trait and then double production on a handful of buildings, never more than 3. I feel your pain...


    The final quip I have is about double production buildings...I personally don't like to overlap them. For example, the Strategic trait just proposed above has double production on Barracks, which is also shared by Aggressive, and Castles (which is shared by the default Protective). Would these stack, or would you only get +100% production even if you have two +100% production buildings? I'd rather avoid that mess entirely by selecting completely unique double-production buildings for each trait.

    @Goodgame: Don't you think your Industrious is a little strong? Take the Financial bonus, and then give them an equally beastly production bonus? I also don't quite understand why all Financial leaders suddenly endorse piracy.
     
  19. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    Poor Cathy Has a useless Cheap building lol
     
  20. GoodGame

    GoodGame Red, White, & Blue, baby!

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    Yes it is essentially a recurrent golden age. Just throwing the idea out, and if the others can balance it why not? :*).

    Letters of Marque is probably an inexact term, but think "Free Companies" in the sense that they are 'patriotic mercenaries' that are free to the state because they are profiteering from their acts against other nations. Or perhaps they are debt paupers paying off their debts through service? :*)

     

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