Critique to the Congress System - Please Read and Discuss

Appren, I think you need to recognize that this is how game development (and mod development) works. When a feature isn't done, it's going to have a lot of weird effects. So you shouldn't immediately say "get rid of it!" or "wipe it clean and start over!"

The best thing you can do, IMO, is either:

1) Keep saved games before and after each "faulty" congress, and post them here.

or

2) Take screenshots before and after each "faulty" congress, preferably with detailed shots of the city in question (or cities) if you can... and post the screenshots here.

That would go a long way to making this feature a success, instead of chiming in saying that the feature is pointless. :)
 
I just had an idea that could drastically increase the amount of strategy involved in the congresses, and it was inspired by SMAC.

what if you could bribe civs to vote a certain way. Perhaps, we could remove the Permanent alliance diplomacy option and instead replace it with a 'bribe' placeholder diplomacy option.

I would suggest this system, however having looked at the Congress code I can't tell you how I would write it in Python.

first, a couple turns, probably 5, before a congress, a popup pops up saying "The leaders of the world are begin to plan a congress, it is believed that these civs will be invited: and it lists off some civs. Now something else we can do is make maybe 3 of the civs listed actually participents at the congress, but the other 2 or however many are listed are just randomly pulled from the surviving civ list, adding a bit of uncertainty.

Then a diplomatic player could go to these players individually, and butter them up normally, but also 'bribe' them to their side. Then when the congress finally rolls around the civs converge, and a simple IF statement should be enough to say "If civ A has 'bribe' with civ B, then civ A is +% towards voting the same as civ B" The 'bribe' that you had with that civ would be removed at the end of the congress, but if you followed through and voted the same you might get a little +1 "you helped us in a congress" diplomacy bonus. Wereas betraying them might give you a hefty minus. We could also get diplomacy bonuses and minuses for civs in general who voted the same way, this could then foster resentment between certain civs and potentially spark World Wars to 'correct' the congress' ruling.

Again, I'm not sure if this is possible, but logically it seems like it would be.

Another thing is perhaps instead of simply taking or giving cities, we might be able to get some different options. For instance, perhaps a warlike Germany might get hit with a 'no milllitary edict' which reduces production of millitary units and increases their maintanence, essentially stifling Germany's war machine. We could have economic edicts that raise maintanence per city, non expansion edicts which prevent the construction of settlers, landlock edicts which prevent the construction of naval units. Whole bunches of things.

We could also, if we can't get the AI programming to work out the bribe function, simulate it by simply dividing the congress members into pairs and giving them a bonus to vote the same way as each other.

This also gives me an idea for allowing the in game enabling or dissabling of congresses, as upposed to simply moving the Congresses.py file . In the custom scenario screen which we can load the map with, there is the 'allow permanent alliances' option, if we replace permanent alliances with the congresses feature, we could change it to 'alow congresses', and then add an If statement to the congresses python file to only have congresses if the 'allow Congresses' map option is selected.

And Rhye, I'm afraid there must be something to give the stronger nations at least a fighting chance in the congress, or else this is pretty much a punishment for having to good of an Empire. However I can't really say, as I haven't played a version with the congresses yet, been too wrapped up in making an Empire in Rome Total War :D

wow, now that was a loooooooong post
 
Another thing is perhaps instead of simply taking or giving cities, we might be able to get some different options. For instance, perhaps a warlike Germany might get hit with a 'no milllitary edict' which reduces production of millitary units and increases their maintanence, essentially stifling Germany's war machine. We could have economic edicts that raise maintanence per city, non expansion edicts which prevent the construction of settlers, landlock edicts which prevent the construction of naval units. Whole bunches of things.

I don´t think to the congress, but they would be worthy addition to the UN. Perhaps the no milllitary edict shouldn´t be applied to germany but to the civ with the strongest military... But for now I think they are out of the scope...
 
I like the "bribe" option.
It will need a different implementation from the one descrbed by Vishaing, but sounds a cool idea.

Oh by the way, I failed to make Congress appear on peace signed. It will stay as it is (25 turns). Fortunately, the Bribe option is now possible because the date of the Congress is predictable.
 
Rhye, can't you have a script triggered after a check finds out if civs X and Y were at war last turn and then sees if they aren't anymore? That would basically do whatever you want when peace is signed (though you may need to watch out for whiped-out civs not being at war with anyone when they're dead. xD)
 
Why couldn't it be an event triggered by the peace-treaty itself?
 
One disadvantage of playing as America is due to immigration. When the American cities receive immigration from other civs, it could make those civs claim the US cities.

For instance, in a game last night New York had 10% German culture due to immigration and Germany naturally claimed New York. The bid failed thankfully but it was strange as there was no German nor any European city on the American continent.
 
Barak said:
One disadvantage of playing as America is due to immigration. When the American cities receive immigration from other civs, it could make those civs claim the US cities.

For instance, in a game last night New York had 10% German culture due to immigration and Germany naturally claimed New York. The bid failed thankfully but it was strange as there was no German nor any European city on the American continent.

fixed, thanks
 
I don´t mind the congress appearing every 25 turns, as sometimes there where congresses not triggered by war. I´m more interested in the results actually. Besides, with the possibility of city trading in the diplo screen, at the end of a war it would be like a mini-congress with the other civ. And also it would open the door for colony trading.
 
It would be nice to be able to reject the offer to attend the world congress if possible. I'm currently powerful enough that I know I won't gain anything from going, and frankly I'd rather boycott the congress :king:
I wouldn't mind rejecting the congress and then refusing if they decide to take one of my cities like I can if I don't get invited.

Also I seem to have lots of random war declarations against me this game, I'm over twice as powerful as some of these countries, and they still declare war against me randomly it appears. :confused:
 
jukeboxhero said:
It would be nice to be able to reject the offer to attend the world congress if possible. I'm currently powerful enough that I know I won't gain anything from going, and frankly I'd rather boycott the congress :king:
I wouldn't mind rejecting the congress and then refusing if they decide to take one of my cities like I can if I don't get invited.

Also I seem to have lots of random war declarations against me this game, I'm over twice as powerful as some of these countries, and they still declare war against me randomly it appears. :confused:

this sounds a good proposal that could be merged in a menu that allows to bribe civs too, the turn before the congress.
 
jukeboxhero, in real life wars aren't always feasible for the side initiating them. It makes sense for little civs to try and piss off the big guy, especially if you view Civ's "War" as a game-version of real-life open hostility.
 
Blasphemous said:
jukeboxhero, in real life wars aren't always feasible for the side initiating them. It makes sense for little civs to try and piss off the big guy, especially if you view Civ's "War" as a game-version of real-life open hostility.
Hm, I don't know about that, what examples are you thinking of? I don't see the point in pissing off the big guy if you know he will kill you. For example, I was finishing off the Persians, and suddenly Saladin declares war on me. He had like 4 cities (I razed Jerusalem and that other city that is below Bablyon, I don't remember its name, those two that the Arabians get when they spawn so he didn't get it :lol: ) and was pretty near the bottom of the power heap (not actually bottom, I think that "honour" belongs to China at the moment). I would have thought it would make more sense for little civs to suck up to the big guy, in the hope of gaining favour. I have never declared war on any civilizations in my game, and yet I've destroyed 5 so far (and I destroyed mainland France, but they have some colonies so basically 6). I think the war declaration thing is a little extreme at the moment.

By the way, I'm not quite sure what you mean by
especially if you view Civ's "War" as a game-version of real-life open hostility.
Do you mean actual conflicts? Or do you just mean stuff like "We're embargoing you, and trying to make people think you're evil"

Anyway, I should probably stop this derail, since the thread is about the congress!
 
What I mean is that what's called "war" in the game (and also in a few historical examples, like the 100-Year War) is really just open hostility over a long period of time. Most real-life wars, especially in the last century, don't last a single game turn.
That considered, Iraq's hostility towards America and her allies is an example of a small civilization declaring "war" on a major player with no chance of gaining territory out of it. Sometimes civs just hate one another, and fight for that reason, not for actual gain.
 
Errr, Blasphemous, Iraq and the US got along fine and dandy, and the US appeared to give Iraq its blessing to take over Kuwait. THEN the US decided that was no good and since then has been belligerent against Iraq.

There might be historical cases where small countries hate larger countries and will declare war on them for no good reason, but that's certainly not one of them. Though thinking about it now I can't really come up with any historical examples, at least in recent times.
 
Well Arkaeyn, you have adeptly uncovered my ignorance (or perhaps simple confusion) on the matter. Thanks. :)
 
Blasphemous, there's a famous picture which does more to explain the situation than I could...

I'm copying and pasting my analysis of the Congress from my China game, in case anyone didn't read that thread:


THE CONGRESS

The Congress system is generally a good idea, but I feel it needs more help. In general, I think it needs to arise dynamically. That's tough to figure out, and worth its own thread. Specific suggestions I have include:

Allow Culture flips on Congress-changed civs. Egypt lost two cities to Rome and France, which quickly shrunk to size 1 and showed up as tiny, constantly rebelling cities on the map. Completely, utterly pointless.

Have more going on in the AI process than "Is the civ too big?" Congresses felt far too deterministic. If the civ with the city under question was much bigger than the demanding civ, the city would switch.

One way to go about this would be to have a diplomatic penalty for voting against a civ. -1 for every time you vote against someone. This would make abstentians relevant, cause more wars, and give the AI a reason not to always vote against the world leader, because he might kick its ass.

I've already recommended that the Congress be based on a majority, rather than simple numbers.

I like the suggestion to opt out of Congresses, so that they can be rejected. Superpowers going their own way, regardless of world governing bodies, is a long and storied tradition, made popular once again by the United States today.

Even better than that is the suggestion for votes to be traded, combined with knowledge the turn before of when the Congress will appear. This will allow the player to look at which cities are available, as well, which is important sometimes when dealing with randomly named colonial possessions.
 
My 2 cents: I've found the congress system as it is really annoying - losing three cities every 25 turns isn't exactly fun. Especially when the fate of my empire is partially determined by extremely weak civs that could very, very easily be crushed.

However, by tinkering with the python script, I've found it to be much more enjoyable with a smaller amount of invited civs. That way, being the leader means losing one city per congress, two if you're extremely unlucky. That isn't too bad of a deal, especially since your rivals are probably hindered, too. Finally, this IMHO more accurently captures the feel of, say, the Congress of Vienna, where the 3-cities, stuck-in-the-middla-ages civs really didn't have a voice.
 
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