ct3 - Chieftain Training Day (for newbies only)

[Padma]

Okay, who's up?

1. archer_007 UP NOW
2. stwils ON DECK
3. BoBtheBUILDER
4. mcdan <skipped>
5. rwprice

I will try to keep this list current and posted after each of my critiques.

 

[Archer 007]

Got It!
Padma, thanks for the reminder.

 

[Padma]

 

[Archer 007]

Preturn-440-Checked current projects. Pasargadae,Zimbabwe, Ulundi, and Antioch all changed from Courthouse to Marketplace.
Turn 1-450-Tarsus finishs Spearman and starts Marketplace. Arbela finishs Immortals and starts Marketplace. Construction starts being researched.
Turn 2-460- Worker movements.
Turn 3-470- Babylon finishs Immortals and starts Marketplace.
Turn 4-480- Worker movements.
Turn 5-490- Zimbabwe and Bactra start Library.
Turn 6-500- Ulundi starts Library.
Turn 7-510- Persepolis and Antioch starts Library.
Turn 8-520- Worker movements.
Turn 9-530- Feudalism starts being researched. Given Monotheism by the Sciencific trait. Got a palace upgrade. Zimbabwe starts on Catherdal.
Turn 10-540- Ulundi starts Cathedral. Persepolis starts Aqueduct.

 

[stwils]

bump

For some reason archer's post has stayed near the bottom of my screen with Padma's name as the last poster.

stwils

 

[Padma]

Same thing here.

Probably something to do with the daily bogging downof the forums, around 21:00 GMT.

??

 

[Padma]

Switching to Marketplaces - sounds reasonable. Those cities aren't very corrupt, so Courthouses are *less* important there. They can be built when there is nothing better.

Libraries and Cathedrals: All very good. You are looking for a culture victory here? Nothing wrong with these at all. I thought we had a city building a galley, though. We can't find the others by sitting on our hands in our own continent. (We also can't settle that island without a ship to transport us.)

Persepolis is building an Aquaduct, but will be unable to grow beyond size 6 until Electricity (no irrigation possible). Maybe we should build a settler or two out of there.

Three turns to Great Lighthouse. I think we will probably get it.

Citizen/worker utilization: Babylon is good right now, but will be growing in 2 turns. There is no improved tile for the new citizen to work. We need to mine/road the hills & mountains there. Zimbabwe still hasn't mined/roaded that bonus tile! Already one citizen is on an unimproved tile, and a new one is due in 3 turns! Ulundi needs the hills all mined/roaded. Citizens are already working them to otherwise good effect. Arabela - the citizen working the unumproved forest in the NW can be moved to the mine in the west - net gain: 1 shield +3 gold! Tarsus: irrigate the floodplain, mine the desert! (Same goes for Ulundi.)

Overall, not a bad turn. Build orders were generally reasonable. (I'm sure rwprice started a new galley in Bactra, though.) Maybe starting a Settler or two would have been good, too.

Worker/citizen utilization needs some more work, however. Many cities have unimproved tiles being worked, and others have "wrong" improvements that need to be adjusted. Not a game-breaker on this level, but as you go higher, it is important to have your workers do the "right" things.

Who's up:

1. archer_007
2. stwils <<< UP NOW
3. BoBtheBUILDER <<< ON DECK
4. mcdan <skipped>
5. rwprice

 

[SJ Frank]

Hi,

I have followed your game for a few turns, and there are a few things that I'd like to point out.

Persepolis, your capital, can get irrigation right now. You can bring fresh over from Pasargadae by irrigating over the unused deserts. In fact, this should be the top worker proriorty in your kingdom. Growing your least corrupt cities to max size will bring you more benefit than just about any other worker project.

For all the nitpicking about build orders and tile usages, the one thing that your empire lacks right now is expansion. You will gain more long term benefit, by popping settlers none stop until you fill out every single tile on your continent, than any other city improvement you can build.

You can place a gold value on just about everything you do in Civ. That's how you can decide which action you should take next.

For example, for every population that you gain in the capital, you get an extra citizen to work what is probably an irrigated plain tile. That citizen is worth 1 shield and two gold per turn. Thus, by bring your capital to size 12, you would have gained 6 shields and 12 gold per turn, with probably one of the shield and one of the gold being corrupted away. Each shield is worth 4 gold (that how much it takes to rush a shield worth of production), so the total benefit of bring irrigation to the capital is 5 * 4 + 11 = 31 gold per turn.

By comparison, when you spend your workers chopping down the jungles around a 50% corrupt city, the same 6 shields and 12 commerce that you get is cut down to 3 shields and 6 gold. Clearly not worth doing if your capital needs improvments right now.

Another example, there is a city site to the east of you capital that can grab two whale tiles. That city, with a temple, a harbor, an aquaduct, and a cathedral can work 10 water tiles. Sure, it will have almost no shield value, but each water tile is worth an average of 3 gold per turn. So, at the cost of a settler and 5 gold per turn worth of building, you gain roughly 10 x 3 = 30 gold per turn. Since this city site is right next to the capital, it will have almost no curruption. Later, with a marketplace and a bank, that city is worth 60 gold per turn. There are very few 30 shield items you can build right now that's worth 60 gold per turn down the line. For each of the potential city sites left on your continent, you can do a rough cost vs benefit calculation like this. You should see that that just about every single city site is worth grabbing, right now.

 

[mcdan]

I hate to ask this on our site but am not sure where to post. In looking at Bob and Padma's posts - often attached are screen shots. I need a reference to a tech site that will help me learn to do this.

Here's what I want to do:

1. Post screen shots with my write-up
2. Print screen shots so I can compare "my moves" with the current player - so I can better learn game
3. Print so that each tile is labled "grassland/gold/ etc"
4. Prepare a screen shot with dots to show possible new cities and overlapping tiles.

Thanks for any advice or suggestions.

 

[BoBtheBUILDER]

Padma can probably do a better job than I could with some of your questions, you may want to just try searching the forums for a thread on screen shots too, there may be one because I know this question comes up often.

I (now) use Microsoft Image Composer because it's what I use at work and I'm most familiar with it. There are people that just use the Microsoft Paint program the comes with windows. All you have to do is hit the "Print Screen" button while you're in the game, hit ALT+TAB to switch windows to your graphics editor, hit CTRL+V or go to the Edit menu and selcect "Paste", and do what you wish to the image.

As far as printing goes it should be the same, I've never tried it.

I'm tired. I'm trying another Warlord game but this time I'm going for a culture victory. I know I'll get the one city victory in 70 some turns... I'd like to get the overall victory but I think the city will beat it out.

Here's a question for Padma... in my game a number of the civs started to gang up on me (about the time they were able to build Ironclads). Is this typical for the AI as the game goes on? I have Infantry or Calvary fortified in all my cities, so it wasn't like I had a weak military, but they came at me anyway. The two primary aggressors were Rome and Germany, and I know they both have the militaristic trait, so I wasn't sure if that had anything to do with it. Anyway, it annoyed me because it distracted from a lot of my cuture building and it is largely a hopeless cause (I'm two turns away from Motorized Transport.. and TANKS! )

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there.

BoB

 

[Padma]

Originally posted by SJ Frank
Persepolis, your capital, can get irrigation right now. You can bring fresh over from Pasargadae by irrigating over the unused deserts. In fact, this should be the top worker proriorty in your kingdom. Growing your least corrupt cities to max size will bring you more benefit than just about any other worker project.

You are correct that irrigation is possible for Persepolis. (Actually, if I were playing this myself, it would have been irrigated already.) But the time and effort required may not be worthwhile at this point. I think this game is already won - it's just a matter of playing it out.

For all the nitpicking about build orders and tile usages, the one thing that your empire lacks right now is expansion. You will gain more long term benefit, by popping settlers none stop until you fill out every single tile on your continent, than any other city improvement you can build.

I agree. At least to an extent. We need more settlers, and have many good sites to place them. But I disagree that we should be "popping settlers non-stop". Remember this is Chieftain. We have built all the Wonders that have been built so far, and probably have a tech lead. The remaining three civs are probably tearing each other to bits on the undiscovered continent. All we probably *need* to do is use our existing land productively. But, yes, that includes cranking out some more settlers.

You can place a gold value on just about everything you do in Civ. That's how you can decide which action you should take next.

For example, for every population that you gain in the capital, you get an extra citizen to work what is probably an irrigated plain tile. That citizen is worth 1 shield and two gold per turn. Thus, by bring your capital to size 12, you would have gained 6 shields and 12 gold per turn, with probably one of the shield and one of the gold being corrupted away. Each shield is worth 4 gold (that how much it takes to rush a shield worth of production), so the total benefit of bring irrigation to the capital is 5 * 4 + 11 = 31 gold per turn.

By comparison, when you spend your workers chopping down the jungles around a 50% corrupt city, the same 6 shields and 12 commerce that you get is cut down to 3 shields and 6 gold. Clearly not worth doing if your capital needs improvments right now.

Another example, there is a city site to the east of you capital that can grab two whale tiles. That city, with a temple, a harbor, an aquaduct, and a cathedral can work 10 water tiles. Sure, it will have almost no shield value, but each water tile is worth an average of 3 gold per turn. So, at the cost of a settler and 5 gold per turn worth of building, you gain roughly 10 x 3 = 30 gold per turn. Since this city site is right next to the capital, it will have almost no curruption. Later, with a marketplace and a bank, that city is worth 60 gold per turn. There are very few 30 shield items you can build right now that's worth 60 gold per turn down the line. For each of the potential city sites left on your continent, you can do a rough cost vs benefit calculation like this. You should see that that just about every single city site is worth grabbing, right now.

If this were earlier in the game, or we were playing on at least Regent, I would be railing about much the same things. But I will also admit that I am a more casual player, and while I know and understand how to do these analyses, I will not normally bother, especially on Chieftain. I have freely admitted in the past that this is why I don't play above Regent. I have neither the time nor the inclination to perform that level of analysis. And also why I will not run a Training Day Game for Regent or above.

For those playing (and observing), SJ Frank has raised many good points. I will certainly not object if any player performs any action he/she has suggested. My opinion is that in this game at this time, it is not *necessary*, but it could also be a good exercise for your own development.


(BTW - not knowing anything about you, but with "SJ Frank" as a screenname, you could be my sister-in-law! )

 

[Padma]

Originally posted by mcdan
I hate to ask this on our site but am not sure where to post. In looking at Bob and Padma's posts - often attached are screen shots. I need a reference to a tech site that will help me learn to do this.

Here's what I want to do:

1. Post screen shots with my write-up
2. Print screen shots so I can compare "my moves" with the current player - so I can better learn game
3. Print so that each tile is labled "grassland/gold/ etc"
4. Prepare a screen shot with dots to show possible new cities and overlapping tiles.

Thanks for any advice or suggestions.

BoB hit the important things.

First, start your graphics program before starting Civ3. (I usually use MS Paint, myself, for the simplicity. I have better/fancier programs, but for this, Paint works just fine.)

Then, like BoB said, hit "Print Screen" while in the game, "ALT-TAB" to your graphics program, and then "CTRL-V" to paste the screenshot into it. Then Save the picture file, especially if you're going to grab more screenshots from the game.

Now for the rest.

Post Screenshots

They need to be in .jpeg/.jpg or .gif format for this. I usually load the saved .bmp into another program for saving this way, to get more control over compression, but I think most versions of Paint will let you save as .jpg, at a default 80% compression.

You can "attach" a single file, either a screenshot or the save, to a post. Max attachment size is 250k. Simply click the "Browse" button on the "Attach File" option of the Reply page, and locate your file. When you click "Submit", the picture/save is attached.

However, attachments use up precious file space on TF's primary server. As a result, he has enabled us to access his file server, which has *much* more space for these things, and which allows us to use another method of "attaching" to put multiple images in one post. I direct you to TF's post on it.

To use it, go to the bottom of this page, and you will see a list of links near the bottom. On the right is one labeled "Upload File". Click on this. A dialog box will pop up to take you through the rest of the way.

In that dialog box, click the "choose" button opposite the label "File 1" Navigate to the directory that contains your Saveor your screenshot. Select your file, and click "Open". Your file will be listed in the box next to the choose button. You may add additional files (up to 3). When finished selecting files, click the "Upload!" button.

To link to your save file, in your post simply include the string: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/yourfile.zip -- replacing "yourfile" with the name of the zipfile you uploaded. (Note: this is why you should not include spaces or underscores in your filename - the upload system will accept them, but the linking protocol doesn't like them, and will give errors if they are encountered when someone clicks on the link.)

You can link to an image (picture) file you uploaded by enclosing the same string (replacing "yourfile.zip" with the name of the jpeg/gif/png that you uploaded) inside [ IMG ] [ /IMG ] tags.

Print Screenshots

I assume you mean print shots from the thread. Obviously, you can print your own screenshots from your graphics program.

Actually, it's the same thing. Just right-click on the screenshot in the thread you want to print, and choose the "Save As" option. Save the picture on you drive, open it with a graphics program, and Print.

Print so that each tile is labled "grassland/gold/ etc"

This one you have to do yourself - open up your screenshot, and manually mark them in whatever fashion you wish. Then print.

Prepare a Dotmap

Again, I usually just use Paint, but BoB obviously uses something fancier. But all you have to do is open your screenshot, and mark where you think cities should go. Draw the city radius around them, and you can mark overlaps/unused tiles.

Hope all that helps.

 

[Padma]

Originally posted by BoBtheBUILDER
Here's a question for Padma... in my game a number of the civs started to gang up on me (about the time they were able to build Ironclads). Is this typical for the AI as the game goes on? I have Infantry or Calvary fortified in all my cities, so it wasn't like I had a weak military, but they came at me anyway. The two primary aggressors were Rome and Germany, and I know they both have the militaristic trait, so I wasn't sure if that had anything to do with it. Anyway, it annoyed me because it distracted from a lot of my cuture building and it is largely a hopeless cause (I'm two turns away from Motorized Transport.. and TANKS! )

Yes, as the game progresses, the other civs seem to be much more likely to gang up on you, especially if you are in the lead!

 

[stwils]

I have the game.

stwils

 

[SJ Frank]

Thanks for the reply. Your points are well taken, I appriciate it.

And no, I'm not married

 

[stwils]

My main goal was to get a few settlers and galleys going, set sail soon as the GL became a reality, see who and what is "out there," and build a city on our east coast near those whales.

I became tunnel visioned on those things- as well as being overly focused on moving around all those ^%$#^% workers - and made a bunch of mistakes which you will see soon.

Preturn:
Persepolis - change aquaduct production to settler
Bactra - change library production to galley
Bapedi - change temple production to to galley
Zimbabwe - moved citizen to tile to get 3gold and 2 food
Arabela - moved citizen to mine
Tarsus - set worker to irrigate flood plain

Turn #1 550 AD
Pasargadae finishes Marketplace/ set to Settler
Bactra - move 5 workers to hills
Babylon- move 2 workers to hills
Zimbabwe - worker to bonus tile
Tarsus - 2 workers to flood plains *hit enter:
Babylon finishes Marketplace/ set to Settler
Antioch finishes Library/ set to worker
Our palace expands!

Turn #2 560 AD
Zimbabwe - worker builds mine on bonus tile
Ulundi - worker roads bonus grassland
Gordium - worker roads
Bactra - 1 worker to mountain; 5 workers mine hills
Babylon - 2 workers road hills
Tarsus -2 workers road flood plains*hit enter:
Persepolis produces Settler/ set to Aquaduct
Susa - GREAT LIGHTHOUSE is ours! Set to produce galley next

Turn#3 570 AD
Susa worker to bonus tile
Bactra - worker roads mountain
Tarsus -2 workers go north to undeveloped flood plain
Arbela finishes Market/ set to Library
Antioch finishes worker/ set to aquaduct
Persepolis moves Settler toward whales

Turn#4 580AD
Antioch - worker moves NW
Persepolis - Settler keeps moving toward the whales
Susa - worker roads bomus tile
Babylon (or Bactra -they are in each others territory so I'm not sure which)- workers road
Bactra - worker to mountain
Babylon - worker E to plains
Babylon- worker mines
Ulundi - worker irrigates
Tarsus - 2 workers road
(Don't you just love hearing all about how these workers are working? You ain't heard nothing yet...)*enter
Babylon finishes Settler/ set to worker
Pasagardae finishes Settler/ set to Library

Turn #5 590AD
Pasagardae Settler moves W to Susa (hoping to get on a galley and sail )
Pasagardae worker builds road
Bactra(Babylon?)- 4 workers to mountain; 1 other worker mines mountain
Babylon worker roads
Babylon Settler moves on road toward Bactra (oops - hit wrong key. Settler gets off road into Jungle or
Forest)
Gordium worker to bonus tile
Zimbabwe worker roads
Tarsus - 2 workers irrigate flood plain
Antioch roads plains*hit enter
Babylon finishes worker/ set to Immortal
"We love the emperor" in lots of cities
Susa finishes galley/ set to spearman
Bapedi finishes galley/ set to Temple
Gordium finishes Temple/ set to Library
Bactra finishes galley/set to Temple
Sidon finishes spearman/ set to Harbor

Turn#6 600AD
Sidon fortifies spearman
Settler moves on toward whales in the E and builds Tyre!!!!
Susa worker builds mine
Susa galley appears - Settler gets on it
Babylon - 4 workers mine mountain
Babylon settler gets back on road to Bactra and waiting galley
Babylon worker goes E to hills/wine
Bactra - galley waits for settler
Gordium - worker irrigates
Ulundi - worker to flood plain
Bapedi - loads spearman on galley and SETS SAIL toward island
load immortal on galley in Susa
Susa- settler and immortal SET SAIL via galley
Bactra - fortify galley to wait for settler to board
Science Advisor says we have Feudalism/ Set to Engineering
(Just realized I had forgotton all about the Science slider! Move it up to 70%)

Turn#7 610 AD
set Tyre to produce Immortal (later after growth we can change it to worker)
Antioch - worker mines
Bactra - load Settler on galley
Zimbabwe - worker goes SE
Ulundi - worker in Fl. Pl irrigates
Bapedi - worker mines grassland
Bapedi - galley and spearman arrive at island. Spearman gets off galley onto island. (WHY didn't I wait for a Settler to go on this venture?? I wanted to set forth as fast as I could and the spearman was ready to sail...)
Empty galley sails on
Babylon - worker goes to hills/wine; other worker goes E
Susa- galley with settler and immortal sail south around our island
Tarsus - 2 workers go W to hills near coast

Turn#8 620 AD
Tarsus - 2 workers mine hills
Galley with immortal and settler sail east now around our island
Zimbabwe worker mines
Gordium worker roads
Bactra worker mines mountain
Babylon - 5 workers road mountain; 1 worker irrigates plains near coast; other worker mines hills/wine
(Aren't our workers doing a grand job?)
Galley near new island moves 4 turns
Spearman (wish it were a Settler) explores new island*hit enter
Babylon finishes immortal/ set to Settler
Susa- finishes Pikeman/ set to Harbor
Arbela finishes Library/ set worker (still lots of jungle and forests to work)
Tarsus - finishes Marketplace/ set to Library

Turn #9 630 AD
Tarsus - worker to Fl. Pl
Susa - fortifies pikeman
Susa- worker mines bonus grassland
Spearman continues to explore island which is uninhabited while the galley moves around island and out a further
Other galley with immortal and settler move around our island
Bactra - galley with settler and spearman move out 4 spaces to sea!
HORRORS. Galley LEFT settler and spearman behind. %$#@%#; fortified them for now...
"Cultural influence expanding." message

Turn #10 640 AD
Babylon - 5 workers move E to mountain with iron; immortal moves to Bactra; worker moves SE to unworked tile;worker on coast roads
Gordium worker moves SW
Ulundi - worker irrigates flood plain
Galley with Immortal and Settler move around our island going E
Bactra- galley has come back to Bactra to pick up the Settler and Spearman it left behind. ^%$#^
Bactra - galley with Settler and Spearman (at last on board) sail E
Spearman on empty island keeps exploring; empty galley near there sails E but no sight of land
Pasagardae - worker moves to jungle
Antioch - worker moves to plains
Sidon - changed production from Harbor to Worker

Just checked with Domestic Advisor. We are losing more than we are gaining.

*Post note: I know I made a lot of mistakes. (clouds of green smoke...) Should we have gone ahead for the Great Library (even though it becomes obsolete with Education?)

 

[stwils]

The save:

 

[mcdan]

Originally posted by stwils


Turn #9 630 AD
Tarsus - worker to Fl. Pl
Susa - fortifies pikeman
Susa- worker mines bonus grassland
Spearman continues to explore island which is uninhabited while the galley moves around island and out a further
Other galley with immortal and settler move around our island
Bactra - galley with settler and spearman move out 4 spaces to sea!
HORRORS. Galley LEFT settler and spearman behind. %$#@%#; fortified them for now...
"Cultural influence expanding." message

B]

Hi Stwils - don't ya just love it when those galleys take off without your men???

 

[stwils]

stwils

 

[mcdan]

Good detailed report Stwils.

Those workers are keeping you busy!

I just finished "playing" your 10 turns and got about the same results. Great to finally get the GL. Now our galleys can be on the move!

Since it seems our plan is to gain a Cul. Vic. is a there a specific strategy in mind. We will soon be facing other civs and am wondering how we will respond to them.

I like the new city placement - Tyre.

Not sure about skipping the GR. Lib. - I would have skipped as well since you pointed out that it will be obsolete with Education. Again, it is because we seem to be leading the pack.