Cuirassier Rush

[ttfno]

Why do people rush Cuirs? They do ignore bonuses from walls and castles and are fast, but what else. They are also the strongest for the time, but all of these still dont convince me why they are so good. Why?

 

[NineOneSix]

Why do people rush Cuirs? They do ignore bonuses from walls and castles and are fast, but what else. They are also the strongest for the time, but all of these still dont convince me why they are so good. Why?

Because they are fast, ignore bonuses from walls and castles and are the strongest for their time! Thats why!

To be a bit more specific;

1. ignoring walls and castles drastically lowers the odds of defending units. This combined with Cuir high base strength means they can win brute force against longbows etc. Their odds against the top defenders are surprisingly good and they can also withdraw. Medieval units cannot brute force city defenders well. Siege units are needed to either suicide for collateral or bombard away the defense bonus but you need a lot of them (at least 8 for a mature city and you have to bombard for 2 turns). Siege units are 1 move so they take longer to get adjacent to the city. They are vulnerable to flanking damage so you need stack defenders. The AI will load the threatened city with defenders while you are approaching/bombarding. Cuirassiers remove the need for all of that by moving in fast and attacking without delay.

2. Cuirs are often referred to as "breakout unit". Early in the game you cannot afford a lot of cities or spread them out too far at higher difficulty levels so people like to stick with 7 to 9 cities. If you stay modestly sized early on and develop a strong economic base you can efficiently beeline liberalism and the Cuir techs. Once that is in place you can rush out a big army of them with slavery/upgrades and capture perhaps double the number of your cities from the neighbouring AI. It happens so fast that they are unable to respond to the onslaught of your "horde". This gives you 20+ mature cities that you are able to pay for and which can produce an even bigger army. The other renaissance units that are "good", rifles and cannons, need more investment in techs and ofc are 1 move units. You cannot do the horde tactic with these units, it does not make them bad but it becomes more of a slow, attritional grind based on siege collateral damage. The AIs have time to catch up in tech so you can't win a game as abruptly as you can with Cuirs, nor can you afford to stop teching. Cuirs are shock and awe and in some situations will win you the game outright.

 

[lymond]

Lol. Tfno basically answered his own question

916 gets to the gist of but there is an important thing about "fast" that I recommend you start learning,i.e., the tactics involved

It also should be clarified that curs are more goto on higher difficulties...on lower levels I want get most work done early with HAs

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Why do people rush Cuirs? They do ignore bonuses from walls and castles and are fast, but what else. They are also the strongest for the time, but all of these still dont convince me why they are so good. Why?

I'm not sure how serious this post is--you're basically saying that Cuirassiers are fast, powerful, and ignore defenses, so what's so great about them?

Anyway, if you haven't tried it, I heartily encourage you to rush for Military Tradition (probably via Liberalism) and whip a bunch of Cuirassiers (or upgrade into them from Horse Archers, probably with the help of a Great Merchant). You'll find that a stack of 15-20 Cuirassiers (plus or minus a few depending on the size and personality your target) will crush any AI with a medieval army. And there really isn't a city defender that presents major problems until Grenadiers or maybe even Riflemen. So there is a very long window in which Cuirassiers are dominant. Combine that with the fact that Cuirassiers have two moves, meaning they can conquer very quickly, and you have a unit that can single-handedly win games.

And of course, the tech path to get to Cuirassiers is also very attractive. It synchs well with the traditional Liberalism path, since you wanted Education for Gunpowder anyway. You can pick up Nationalism or Military Tradition from Liberalism--the former if you're in a tight race for Lib, the latter if you have some time. You can also sometimes get the Taj Mahal (from Nationalism) and a free great person (from Music), which are both nice. And best of all, it involves a lot of techs which the AI tends not to prioritize, so there's lots of good trading to be had.

As a final note, Cuirassiers become available at a good time in the game for a rush--not just in the sense that there are no good counter units (which is true), but also in that they unlock before runaway AIs become a true problem. Even the leading Deity AI is probably not going to be unassailable at 800 AD (a good target date for a Cuirassier rush). If you wait until 1500 AD to make your move, that might be too late.

 

[ttfno]

Ok, thanks. Yes ik that my post was kinda stupid. I just wanted a better understanding. Specifically the liberalism route. Because units- war elephants- can kill cuirassiers. And also that well made stacks full of pikes/elephants/musketmen on cities along with other defenders are good against them. And like Caius Drewart said, grenadiers and riflemen can kill. Anyway to prevent that? Thanks, and I would like to ask if there are other "breakthrough" units? Any breakthrough UU?

 

[lymond]

eh..Curs get decent odds against WEs ..Pikes are generally the biggest obstacle, especially in city. Regardless, you spam enough Curs you are going to be fine. Use tactics and try to avoid just slamming them all into one highly defended city. Idea is to get them up as fast as possible with good research and bulbing strategies so you are not facing too many later era units, although you will likely transition to Cavalry.

to me the key breakthrough/breakout units are:

Horse Archers
Curs
Rifle/Cannons (or just Cannons and whatevah)

 

[ttfno]

Yeah, people have mentioned HAs and Cannon rushes. Can you touch in those a bit. You seem to know a lot of information about these type of stuff. Its nice to be informed crtically good. Thanks for doing your thing in the community man!

 

[lymond]

Well, much as been written in the past on all this for sure, and you could write an article on each, but I can give some highlights.

HAs - Effective on most levels with lifespan decreasing as you move up levels. For example, on Deity you are likely only able to take out 1 AI out most, maybe two (or at least bite into it). In some cases, depending on factors, they might not work at all. However, on Deity those early gains can make or break your overall game. Below Deity you can do a lot of damage. With access to early horses, you can beeline HBR after worker techs or in some cases get writing before HBR..you know, get some kind of economy. And then just spam HAs and kill peoples. The key, like Curs, is not just the power of the unit for its time, but the speed and tactics you can use. Quick attacks, forking cities, otherwise having more choice in attack decisions because of movements. Shock and awe! The lower the level the more bang for you buck. On levels say Emperor and lower on Panagaea like maps you might be able to run the map with them. Some skilled players might be able to on IMM, but AIs can get Feud fairly early on IMM, and LBs pretty much spell the end of the HA era. Although rarely used by human players, LBs are one of the most effective units for what they are designed for in the game...an that obstacle increases substantially with Protective leaders (conversely, on certain maps early unit efficacy can be voided entirely..not much to kill if no access to civs)

Cannon - Generally, the key to cannons is the tech rush to Steel. Ideally libbing Steel itself or at least something like Chemistry. Cannons are so powerful in their time, that once you get them you likely don't even need Rifling yet and can use them with Maces and support units, Muskets too, ofc, but mainly in support. That is, by support units that can counter attacks Maces don't. Regardless, Cannons are massively powerful against cities, whether quick bombardment or attacking. And due to their base strength, you get some protection as well ..they are not easy to kill except by later era flanking mounted..like opponent curs. Meanwhile, get to Rifling as soon as you can and maybe promote some of those jacked up Maces (CRIII Rifles are sick and Rifles themselves cannot get CR out the gate, but CR promoted Maces can be upgraded to Rifles). You can also attach GGs to some uber maces and upgrade for free. Have some GMs for trade mission so you have lots of gold. Start pre-building Muskets in unit production cities close to Rifling as well and they will all upgrade to Rifles in the city queue..even 1t to build before the turn Rifling comes in as they switch IBT. (does not work when libbing Rifling)

Note that at some point - and you likely have already done a lot damage, the AIs will get Grenadiers (they love that tech and unit). Grens are slightly weaker overall but have attack bonus against Rifles so the AI will love to hit you with them. Good counter is to throw in a couple of Curs or likely Cavs in your stacks, if you have horses, which you likely will by this point with your massive gains. (and really the reason I go the Cannon route is that I don't have horses or otherwise I just want to...good option on watery maps that require naval strategies as you can set up to plop little attack stacks simultaneously across an enemy empire - via sea - taking a bunch of cities at once. Watery maps can be kinda counter the whole mounted speed advantage)

 

[frippy72]

Well summed up by Lymond;

Cannons have a big window to be used, especially is you can get them early via lib->steel. I tend to go for Curs->Cavs, just preference as I like the extra movement which allows much shorter wars to grab a few cities. If you're really trying to take someone out you can use some cannons and rifles to deal with bigger SoDs, while mounted units can whip around taking out smaller cities and lone enemy units.

Over time you'll start to see which you prefer, although whether you go rifles/cannons or cavs should depend on the situation you are faced with in each game.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Another key breakout unit is the war elephant (which should always be combined with catapults, since you need Construction to make war elephants anyway). As with the cuirassiers, war elephants have no real counter when they first appear. There isn't a unit that can easily best them one-on-one until pikemen show up, and even those don't spell the end of the rush since you have siege. I try to expand to 4-6 cities and make my rush perhaps around 300 BC or so. (Obviously that depends a lot on the start). I usually build a stable in one city and pump out war elephants from there, while everywhere else builds catapults. I throw in a couple axes to protect against spears and pikes (though phants don't really need help against the former). This rush has a very high success rate. Even if the AI gets Feudalism or Engineering early you can often still crack them. And often you can catch the AI without longbows and pikes, in which case they're definitely toast.

Personally, I hate horse archer rushes on Deity. Even if I burn all my forests and whip like crazy, they still fail over half the time for me. HAs don't get great odds against archers in hill cities or walled cities, and they do even worse against metal units. (Deity AIs are extremely likely to have metal by the time you can launch your rush.) You can pillage the metal with your horse archers, which can help, but that's hardly a panacea when the AI might have already built a bunch of spears. You could also try choking an AI early and then teching to HAs to finish them off. Choking a Deity AI is not easy though.

So I would basically only attempt a HA rush if a) I didn't have enough land to get 5 decent cities and saw no other option or b) if I had an extremely soft target nearby (like the Americans or the Incans.) I'm sure others are more skilled at this rush and can achieve a better success rate than I, though.

 

[ttfno]

Another key breakout unit is the war elephant (which should always be combined with catapults, since you need Construction to make war elephants anyway). As with the cuirassiers, war elephants have no real counter when they first appear. There isn't a unit that can easily best them one-on-one until pikemen show up, and even those don't spell the end of the rush since you have siege. I try to expand to 4-6 cities and make my rush perhaps around 300 BC or so. (Obviously that depends a lot on the start). I usually build a stable in one city and pump out war elephants from there, while everywhere else builds catapults. I throw in a couple axes to protect against spears and pikes (though phants don't really need help against the former). This rush has a very high success rate. Even if the AI gets Feudalism or Engineering early you can often still crack them. And often you can catch the AI without longbows and pikes, in which case they're definitely toast.

Personally, I hate horse archer rushes on Deity. Even if I burn all my forests and whip like crazy, they still fail over half the time for me. HAs don't get great odds against archers in hill cities or walled cities, and they do even worse against metal units. (Deity AIs are extremely likely to have metal by the time you can launch your rush.) You can pillage the metal with your horse archers, which can help, but that's hardly a panacea when the AI might have already built a bunch of spears. You could also try choking an AI early and then teching to HAs to finish them off. Choking a Deity AI is not easy though.

So I would basically only attempt a HA rush if a) I didn't have enough land to get 5 decent cities and saw no other option or b) if I had an extremely soft target nearby (like the Americans or the Incans.) I'm sure others are more skilled at this rush and can achieve a better success rate than I, though.

I will keep this in mind!

 

[ttfno]

Well summed up by Lymond;

Cannons have a big window to be used, especially is you can get them early via lib->steel. I tend to go for Curs->Cavs, just preference as I like the extra movement which allows much shorter wars to grab a few cities. If you're really trying to take someone out you can use some cannons and rifles to deal with bigger SoDs, while mounted units can whip around taking out smaller cities and lone enemy units.

Over time you'll start to see which you prefer, although whether you go rifles/cannons or cavs should depend on the situation you are faced with in each game

Well, much as been written in the past on all this for sure, and you could write an article on each, but I can give some highlights.

HAs - Effective on most levels with lifespan decreasing as you move up levels. For example, on Deity you are likely only able to take out 1 AI out most, maybe two (or at least bite into it). In some cases, depending on factors, they might not work at all. However, on Deity those early gains can make or break your overall game. Below Deity you can do a lot of damage. With access to early horses, you can beeline HBR after worker techs or in some cases get writing before HBR..you know, get some kind of economy. And then just spam HAs and kill peoples. The key, like Curs, is not just the power of the unit for its time, but the speed and tactics you can use. Quick attacks, forking cities, otherwise having more choice in attack decisions because of movements. Shock and awe! The lower the level the more bang for you buck. On levels say Emperor and lower on Panagaea like maps you might be able to run the map with them. Some skilled players might be able to on IMM, but AIs can get Feud fairly early on IMM, and LBs pretty much spell the end of the HA era. Although rarely used by human players, LBs are one of the most effective units for what they are designed for in the game...an that obstacle increases substantially with Protective leaders (conversely, on certain maps early unit efficacy can be voided entirely..not much to kill if no access to civs)

Cannon - Generally, the key to cannons is the tech rush to Steel. Ideally libbing Steel itself or at least something like Chemistry. Cannons are so powerful in their time, that once you get them you likely don't even need Rifling yet and can use them with Maces and support units, Muskets too, ofc, but mainly in support. That is, by support units that can counter attacks Maces don't. Regardless, Cannons are massively powerful against cities, whether quick bombardment or attacking. And due to their base strength, you get some protection as well ..they are not easy to kill except by later era flanking mounted..like opponent curs. Meanwhile, get to Rifling as soon as you can and maybe promote some of those jacked up Maces (CRIII Rifles are sick and Rifles themselves cannot get CR out the gate, but CR promoted Maces can be upgraded to Rifles). You can also attach GGs to some uber maces and upgrade for free. Have some GMs for trade mission so you have lots of gold. Start pre-building Muskets in unit production cities close to Rifling as well and they will all upgrade to Rifles in the city queue..even 1t to build before the turn Rifling comes in as they switch IBT. (does not work when libbing Rifling)

Note that at some point - and you likely have already done a lot damage, the AIs will get Grenadiers (they love that tech and unit). Grens are slightly weaker overall but have attack bonus against Rifles so the AI will love to hit you with them. Good counter is to throw in a couple of Curs or likely Cavs in your stacks, if you have horses, which you likely will by this point with your massive gains. (and really the reason I go the Cannon route is that I don't have horses or otherwise I just want to...good option on watery maps that require naval strategies as you can set up to plop little attack stacks simultaneously across an enemy empire - via sea - taking a bunch of cities at once. Watery maps can be kinda counter the whole mounted speed advantage)

Wow thanks for writing that! I will keep these notes in mind and I'll check 'em during my games. Just like frippy said, well summed up.

 

[ttfno]

This will be a great guide for me, thanks to all the people who helped. I think I might aswell be able to move up difficulty!

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

I've always preferred having siege weapon support for my attacks. I'm just curious about the tactics for a Cuirassier rush.
-If an enemy is Protective and has hill cities, is it better to wait for Cannons?
-How does a Cuirassier stack defend against a counterattack? Civ 4 road spam means you could potentially get hit by half the enemy's defending army in one turn. The speed advantage is negated if you need 1-move units to defend them.
-Are the Cuirassiers also used to garrison newly-captured cities?
-What do you do with wounded Cuirassiers? Just leave them to heal?

 

[ttfno]

I've always preferred having siege weapon support for my attacks. I'm just curious about the tactics for a Cuirassier rush.
-If an enemy is Protective and has hill cities, is it better to wait for Cannons?
-How does a Cuirassier stack defend against a counterattack? Civ 4 road spam means you could potentially get hit by half the enemy's defending army in one turn. The speed advantage is negated if you need 1-move units to defend them.
-Are the Cuirassiers also used to garrison newly-captured cities?
-What do you do with wounded Cuirassiers? Just leave them to heal?

1.If protective and hill cities its fine. Just use spies to make revolts so no culture defenses. Just spam cuirs.

2.Lots of people raise enemy cities than after the war just rebuild them. But if you really want to keep them just build the cuirs in the cities far from the front, so that you can build musketmen (Or just support units) at the front cities. That way the cuirs can run quickly to the cities and attack and the support will arrive quick. But you could just attack full out cuirs, with slavery, chopping and if you want you can draft units at the front for support! Damn thats overkill! Eventually you will get at least a city, good army, maybe a tech or gold! Also you must have roads for cuir speed and support to come in time.

3. Same as above, really. If you need to defend just wait for support. You also need tactics. Like attacking 2 cities
instead of focusing on one, and diversions! Otherwise your probs not ready for attacking your target if they are focusing on your front!

4.Wounded cuirs are like siege units, you can suicide them or just heal with the support units. If you want to go ahead try to garrison your cities with wounded cuirs. May work?

I no pro, Im great on paper but not on field! Just try it out and tell me how it goes!

 

[CaiusDrewart]

I've always preferred having siege weapon support for my attacks. I'm just curious about the tactics for a Cuirassier rush.
-If an enemy is Protective and has hill cities, is it better to wait for Cannons?
-How does a Cuirassier stack defend against a counterattack? Civ 4 road spam means you could potentially get hit by half the enemy's defending army in one turn. The speed advantage is negated if you need 1-move units to defend them.
-Are the Cuirassiers also used to garrison newly-captured cities?
-What do you do with wounded Cuirassiers? Just leave them to heal?

I mostly agree with ttfno's take. Protective Longbows and even Muskets shouldn't be a problem for Cuirs, you'll take higher losses but nothing unacceptable. Protective Grenadiers might slow your roll.

As for the enemy's stack, scout out the territory before you attack so you know where it is. With the AI's stack having only 2 or 3 moves you should never be caught unawares by it. (Once the AI has railroads, invading them is much harder.) You can promote one Cuir to sentry to help with this. When you find the stack, you always want to attack it, not the other way around: this means you won't get killed by siege and also lets you use the Cuir withdraw chance. Just lure the AI stack onto flat ground and smash it.

And of course, in the ideal circumstance the AI in question will already be at war, and you might not have to fight their stack at all.

 

[ttfno]

I mostly agree with ttfno's take. Protective Longbows and even Muskets shouldn't be a problem for Cuirs, you'll take higher losses but nothing unacceptable. Protective Grenadiers might slow your roll.

As for the enemy's stack, scout out the territory before you attack so you know where it is. With the AI's stack having only 2 or 3 moves you should never be caught unawares by it. (Once the AI has railroads, invading them is much harder.) You can promote one Cuir to sentry to help with this. When you find the stack, you always want to attack it, not the other way around: this means you won't get killed by siege and also lets you use the Cuir withdraw chance. Just lure the AI stack onto flat ground and smash it.

And of course, in the ideal circumstance the AI in question will already be at war, and you might not have to fight their stack at all.

Certainly agree. By the the time grenadiers and railroads come, you obviuosly havent "rushed"! And definetly use the withdraw chance to advantage! Follow the things above and get ready for success!

 

[ArchGhost]

I've always preferred having siege weapon support for my attacks. I'm just curious about the tactics for a Cuirassier rush.
-If an enemy is Protective and has hill cities, is it better to wait for Cannons?
-How does a Cuirassier stack defend against a counterattack? Civ 4 road spam means you could potentially get hit by half the enemy's defending army in one turn. The speed advantage is negated if you need 1-move units to defend them.
-Are the Cuirassiers also used to garrison newly-captured cities?
-What do you do with wounded Cuirassiers? Just leave them to heal?

1.) Easiest is a spy to revolt the city if you have the spy ready and the EPs. Otherwise, just spam more. Smart promotion really helps too: counter promote against their unit comp: Combat for lots of Longbows, Shock for Pikes, Pinch for Muskets, Flanking for Rifles (try to get Pinch too to have a chance!). If you don't know what to take just go Combat or Flanking. I typically start off producing Combat 2 Cuirs until I start seeing Pikes, then Combat 1/Shock until Muskets show up. Take Flanking if they are really dug in and abuse numbers with the the withdrawal chance to act as a first strike of sorts. Withdrawal and numbers is pretty much the only chance you have to beat Rifles at all without cannons or airships. And like always, keep a Medic unit running with you to heal injuries back up. Even a simple Medic 1 cuir in the stack is better than nothing, go from 20 turns to 7 turns max to heal in enemy territory. But a Medic 3 scout/explorer/Chariot or any low power Medic 3/Morale unit is best.

2.) Cuirs are a power-spike unit. They are meant to not have a real effective answer in the fast window you can get them until the target reaches a hard counter (which they don't have) or defender tier above them (Rifles). That said, pikes are dangerous to be hit by and Knights are often around to clean up after siege suicides on you. Other Cuirs or Grenadiers, if they have them, also hurt a lot. It is best not to be hit at all, which means either attacking the enemy's stack to destroy it or avoid it entirely with your mobility and hit elsewhere. Counter hits from individual units cna be mitigated by keeping your cuirs together or leaving moving weak ones deeper into enemy territory for bait if you don't mind losing units.

3.) You *can* do it with your entire stack to along with a medic to heal off collateral/chip damage, but if you're in danger of being hit by a stack or something and you haven't razed the city, it's a better idea to simply leave the city undefended/only with a weak unit in it, then take it back when the AI steps into it. They'll get the defensive bonuses immediately if it never came out of revolt, but they'll leave themselves open to losing more of their military for nothing. Razing or gifting away cities to a neighbor (I like giving them to a colony when doing intercontinental wars) often works better for fast wars where you're trying to capitulate the target instead of acquire more cities of your own

4.) I use them for picking off workers/scouting ahead or leaving as bait in the aforementioned capture/vacate city thing. If they happen to be Flanking promoted, you could use them to hit stacks to harm their siege, but I rarely plan for this. I also often leave these guys behind in the just-captured cities together, giving one of them a Medic 1 promotion to help heal up quickly, while the main stack of healthy guys+the main medic move on. At the very least they prevent opportunistic recaptures by stupid roaming chariots or something.


Cuirs are pretty awesome. The only unit that provides a power-spike stronger is Cannons, which are just friggin' insane and can let you fight even Infantry with stuff like Maces. Siege war is so slow though (also I don't really like going Trebs unless I have to, so I don't have a lot for upgrades), and a lot of times I can't reach Lib fast enough to make Steel a valid target, but Nationalism or Military Tradition is a might bit easier. Cuir wars are like suddenly shifting into high gear after fighting hard uphill, it's just so cool to suddenly being the one to be whooping ass just like that.

 

[dutchfire]

I think the consensus is that you should pretty much always take Combat promotions, not Flanking.

 

[frippy72]

I just sometimes make a few flanking once I'm up against units like rifles, or generally anything that gives me <50% survival odds