Cultist from OO too imba?

[Ksi]

As I believe Kael said a long time ago, when you look at balancing religions, do not look at the units individually but the religion as a whole. If you do this then anything "unbalanced" about the cultists quickly fades away. They're essential to OO when you compared it to other religions such as the Veil.

 

[Ringtailed]

As I believe Kael said a long time ago, when you look at balancing religions, do not look at the units individually but the religion as a whole. If you do this then anything "unbalanced" about the cultists quickly fades away. They're essential to OO when you compared it to other religions such as the Veil.

I disagree with the bolded part. Drowns are good, stygian guards are good (they can use metal promotions now), Tower of Complacency is good, Saverous and Hemah are very powerful, Asylums and OO temples are good. OO is not a weak religion; cultists aren't the only reason to use it. I'm not 100% sure whether cultists are imbalanced or not since it's coastal only, but I highly suspect that they are. Such a high damage cap from an unlimited tier2 unit is questionable; I'd suggest making it a high priest spell. Bring Mutation back for cultists.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I disagree with the bolded part. Drowns are good, stygian guards are good (they can use metal promotions now), Tower of Complacency is good, Saverous and Hemah are very powerful, Asylums and OO temples are good. OO is not a weak religion; cultists aren't the only reason to use it. I'm not 100% sure whether cultists are imbalanced or not since it's coastal only, but I highly suspect that they are. Such a high damage cap from an unlimited tier2 unit is questionable; I'd suggest making it a high priest spell. Bring Mutation back for cultists.

Drowns+Saverous are the key stones to OO. Giving you some of the best early game religion based combatants. However Tower of Complacency isn't really that great, OO templs and Asylums are pretty bad to be honest, compared to the same or similar structures in other religions. The religion also doesn't have any empire defining economic advantage like RoK, FoL or AV, or even Order (Via basilica's, unyeilding order, etc).

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Asylums are like dungeons that boost research. Considering dungeons are pretty goddamn useful if you're warring aggressively, that's a good deal.

 

[DrStalker]

Cultists upgraded to dwarven druids are the true Imba unit. They can solo just about any city, provided there is a peak or piece of water nearby for them to attack from without fear of retaliation.

Sure, they're a rather late-game unit and you only get four of them... but those four can tear civilizations apart.

 

[Ksi]

I don't know what difficulty you play at Ringtailed but youre analysis of OO is not very realistic. As Zechnophobe stated so well drowns + saverous are the key stones of OO. Hemah is not bad by the time you get access to him but keep in mind he is not what he used to be. Mutation is a terrible change for the priests.

And monkeyfinger, I suggest you play a bit more. Asylums have a side effect not listed in the pedia that make spamming these "dungeons that boost research" much worse than dungeons which aren't exactly as useful as you might imagine to begin with.

Again, pay attention to balancing the religion as a whole, not the individual unit. If the game was balanced by the unit I'm sure most would agree it would be very boring.

 

[Amuro]

U need cold imune, if u have that tsunami is nothing, I don't think that any of the spells are over powered; magic resistance is just isn't a viable route for normal units. but if u are playing a water map and u r not OO then your hero has to have resistances to cold, unless you don't build on the coast.

well yes you make a good point but... In MP when you choose your promotions there is too many factors to think about...and immune promotion are only for one unit and far away in the branch... No really the game needs a "choose your type of immune and be immune for one round " kind spell.

 

[Lt_Kain]

If you want to counter the tsunami spell without changing it you need to create a magic protection kind of spell ... That could protect the whole stack, remove 10-20% chance per turn ... why not protection from fire, water, etc you could adjust a strategy against Oo cultist.
The only current counter is to attack as soon as possible the oO guyz and if he is too powerfull (bigger empire) it is suicidal So ..
A good example is to rush Oo religion, boats and cultist and make 3 Cultist with 3 warriors and you can destroy an entire coastal civ ^^ No need for archmage, mage or berseker Just warriors and cultist huhu and you will destroy almost any defense!

 

[Monkeyfinger]

And monkeyfinger, I suggest you play a bit more. Asylums have a side effect not listed in the pedia that make spamming these "dungeons that boost research" much worse than dungeons which aren't exactly as useful as you might imagine to begin with.

You're talking about the 10% crazed chance, right? Not relevant unless you tard out and build a hero or national unit in an asylum city or something. Oh no, your generic units have a very slight chance to go barb, and are better suicide troops due to enraged's bonuses. And lol at someone saying "dungeons aren't exactly as useful as you might imagine" suggesting that someone else needs to play a bit more.

 

[Lt_Kain]

Thats why my bersekers were enraged sometime !!! I understand now

 

[Blackmantle]

Actually Crazed is an advantage not a drawback for most civs. Either you have Law-Mana (and many civs have so from the start) in which case it turns into a full advantage. (Movement boost + Combat boost 20% half of the Time isn't all that bad).
If not its free xp in the Battleground of your chosing.
You are really think Units turning barb is a bad thing?
For World-Units maybe. But only if you have no Law at hand. Normal units going crazy level your good units without big risk involved. (and one fight on a Tier 2-3 Unit is worth 3-6 XP even with good odds.)

Both is a plus. And clearly so.

As an added benefit Asylums produce Lunatics (which seem rather Cheap to build) and upgrade Slaves to Lunatics (not the worst thing with Slave trade or Slavery Civic btw. ) which are additional free sources of XP. Not many other places where you can build reliable! XP (since they always start with Crazed) for your already experienced Units outside of an actual warzone.
Let alone at the place and time of your chosing without much risk or another AI / Barb / Player moving his units with purpose involved.


You have to look at all things, true. But OO is not that bad a deal.
Its not as overpowered as stated here somewhere either.
Its a fairly well balanced Religion all in all which might! be much more powerfull on Maps with lots of Water. Like it should be and is designed to be.

If OO breaks your game in Multiplayer either change your Strategy (again: try against more experienced multiplayers and you'll see that cultists are not all that game-breaking as you think) or your type of Map.
FoL with lots of Forests is good as well. As is RoK if really lots of Hills are around.
They are designed to be just that. Full Stop.

Its all a question of settings. If they don't work out ok: Change them. Not the hardest thing to do.

Stack-busting Spells are a different matter and should be adressed comprehensively as a block and not via small isolated fixing.


I don't guess you whould like to argue that without a costal City or Water near OO is rather bad in comparison, whould you?

Oh and save for Lanun, Costal Cities are not exactly yery good in FFH 2 most of the time. (Or in other words: Without at least 2 or more Sea-Resources and lots of land in your fat cross costal cities rather suck. That includes benefits from Foreign Trade and greath Lighthouse allready if you dont get those costal cities are crap unless only 2-3 Sea-Tiles. For Financial Civs it might be borderline acceptable but is still subpar.)
And guess what: Lanun is rather likely to get OO faster than you and rush you if you try that. They are the ones which have most incentive to go OO.
If you are Lanun and use OO its playing to your strengths and the game is designed for players to just do that.
Try Dwarves on a Highlands-Map with lots of Mountains + Hills and RoK and you'll see.
If you know Player-Lanun is in the game leave the sea for them and get them down via maelstorm Fireball and the like. No need to let them chose your Battleground. If you do: Your loss.
If you can't avoid costal cities because Water is everywhere you play the wrong map. And want to hand victory to Lanun.

 

[Zechnophobe]

So.. I get you saying that OO is good near water, and FoL is good near Forets... but I don't really find RoK any better in hilly maps than not. I mean, I guess you get slightly more use out of Arete (If you use it, though I rarely do) and Soldiers of Kilmorph do get that nice double move over hills (If you aren't already playing dwarves). It's not nearly as profound a difference, at the very least.

 

[Blackmantle]

First add Lanun into the mix and you got about what im saying. (since i do guess that the OPs impression might stem from 00 Lanun on a map like continents or with comparably large bodys of Water. Otherwise its just a question of tactics and the game is not to blame. In which case its bad play on the oponents behalf and the balancing / game is not to blame)
As for Elves + FoL on Boreal and Dwarves (including Lurch) + ROK in Highlands

That Advantage is mainly of military Nature though for ROK. (All your Units moving (at least) 2 Tiles and getting full defensive Bonus where only mounted ones can even hope to match (lots of Hills, some forested) and don't get the bonus to defense does make a huge difference and those units the best easiely.)

And Highlands is really full of Hills so its nearly as extreme as Archipelago in that regard if! the settings are right. If you have 60%+ Hills and Run Arete and are dwarf (no matter which of the 2 dwarven civs at least at the beginning of the game. As well as getting a significant Bonus to Production.) it does make a huge difference.

OO on Highlands with few water isn't all that hot. Bring on those Cultists.


I didn't mean to say that all religions are equaly balanced (RoK is a bit or even up to considerably weaker. Fol seems quite good in line with Veil and Empyrean depending on Playstyle and Settings. Each For different Reasons.). Just that the global asessment that OO is overpowered or cultist are (and since we know FFH 2 is balanced at civ-level that last point is not very important independently) is not really accurate without a lot of "ifs". And since the statement in the thread-title as well as the start posts don't indicate any serious "ifs", i think it indeed may be down to the ops favorite settings. Which should be pointed out since op + multiplayer-partners might have missed that point. At least in part. Even if it seems obvious.

Or at least to get a bit more input from op + his playmates to see how they come to such a weird global acessment.

 

[Ringtailed]

I don't know what difficulty you play at Ringtailed but youre analysis of OO is not very realistic. As Zechnophobe stated so well drowns + saverous are the key stones of OO. Hemah is not bad by the time you get access to him but keep in mind he is not what he used to be. Mutation is a terrible change for the priests.

So you admit there are reasons other than cultists to use OO.

Mutation is a good spell. It's not as strong as Tsunami, no. But I think it's a bad idea for spells like that to be on units that aren't limited in number. One could argue that all stack-destroying spells should be dealt with somehow, and I would tend to agree. But, I have no idea whether this will ever occur; therefore I suggested moving it to tier4. At least then you can only have four units casting it at once.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Mutation is not a good spell. True, it can be useful, but this detracts from the passive effect of Chaos mana and from the Balseraph's Freaks. I think the spell should be removed from the game, replaced with Summon Chaos Marauder. I guess it would be thematically correct though for OO to have the spell. At least, more sense than for Chaos Mages.

 

[Ringtailed]

When I say it's a good spell, I mean how useful it is to the user, not so much how it affects the uniqueness of other aspects.

 

[PacoDeth]

I'm in agreeance with the OO Tsunami spell as being WAY overpowered. Me and a friend played a game where I was Luchuirp and he was another race which took the OO religion against several computers. He would just take his OO priests and Tsunami a city with a few, then any units in the city, no matter how big and bad they were, went down to almost no strength. After that I would just roll up with some Fireballing Golems, and could fireball each unit with ease killing every single one I fireballed.

Now imagine one person with Fireballing Golems and OO Priests casting, it's insane! We now basically disable the OO relgion right off the bat, it's simply no fun to play with or against.

 

[Roghar]

Is that an issue of the unit being overpowered or the AI not being good enough? I'd expect if you walk up a few cultists to any decent player's city they will be hit before you are within 2 squares.

Likewise the golems, its not like they race up and surprise you

 

[PacoDeth]

not if you use waterwalking with the cultists and approach from the water, then they have to have a navy to defend against it. Oh they have a navy? Just summon the big squid creature to protect your Cultists while they spam on the Tsunami, easy as pie! And yes, Tsunami can hurt your own units, but if you play it smart, you can position the Cultist so he can hit a city without hitting the tile your units are on too.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Blackmantle: definitely agree. OO is not too powerful. Multiplayer strategies are not about how powerful they are, but how fast you can pull them off. It's race to the fastest most of the time, much like the catepillar situation in game-theory. And sailing is not a cheap tech in FFH2.