Cultural Diversity

Cultural Diversity

  1. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Lol, so currently we are going to have 15 cultural groups - not too much? :0

    Anyway - my new pack of ideas! I must say, I love this Mod Project and thinking on it :)

    All those suggestions are... Well, suggestions; especially numbers are highly debatable. Also, I don't have many ideas on Cultural Objectives.
    Because I love immersion, each group Bonus and Penalty has its own Fancy Name ;)

    CLASSIC CIVILISATONS - Greece, Rome, Carthago, Phoenicia (??) et cetera.

    Spoiler :
    Bonuses
    • Birth of Republic - Liberty, Aestethics, Patronage and Honor policies are 20% faster to gain.*
    • Pax Romana - Improvements and building construction time decreased by 20%.
    • Phoenician Expansion - National wonders can be built when half of the requirements are met**.
    • Classical Philosophy - Minor science and cultural boost for every Great Person born.
    • Ductus Exemplo - Each National Wonder present in city increases unit strenght of units build in it by 5%.***
    Penalties
    • Divide et Impera - Tradition, Piety and Rationalism policies are 25% slower to gain.****
    • Epicureism - All religious buildings and units are 33% more expensive.
    Unique Building
    [*]Thermae - +2 food and culture in city
    Unique National Wonder
    Forum - +2 happiness per city connection.
    Cultural Objectives
    • Build X tiles of roads. [One Time Boost]
    • Builds X aqueducts, thermae, harbors or amphitheatres. [OTB]
    • Maintain the biggest land army and largest fleet in the world.
    • Additional culture points for each enemy capital conquered.
    • Additional culture points for each Great Work in the empire, and Great Tile Improvement.

    * - ya know: Carthago, Rome, Greece and Phoenicia had big republican tendencies, and even when they were failing, all these states were 'WIDE' empires :)
    ** - I mean, when half of cities in the empire have certain building. Also... Come on, Heroic Epic! National Epic! National College! Grand Temple! Circus Maximus! These guys have to have some National Wonder bonus :0
    *** - Homer, tyrteism, Illada, Eneid, imperial glory, inspired hoplites and legions, right?
    **** - Those civs were also relatively 'liberal' in terms of Tradition and Piety. Rationalism is more controversial but I would like to balance this group... On the other hand: Roman/Carthaginian/Phoenician scientific achievements were rather achieved on military/architecture/infrastructure/law field than purely intellectual one. One could also say that while Greek philosophers had giant accomplishments in science, this is already reflected by Classical Philosophy for Great People and their early policies bonuses, while later Greek science stagnated. Eventually, scientific revolution in Europe was achieved not because of Greek philosophy (this doesn't contradicts its importance!) but because of denying infinite 'Greek knowledge', goddamn Aristotle and his wildly unscientific methods :p



    OCCIDENT CIVILISATIONS - England, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, France, Germany, Venice, Denmark, Sweden.

    Spoiler :
    Bonuses
    • Scientific Revolution - costs of military and economic technologies since Medieval to Modern Era are halved.
    • Capitalism - +100% to yield of specialists, +50% to their great people bonus generation points.
    • Seven Seas - Each sea trade route sent to other Cultural Group increases gold and production by 5% in all cities, up to +25%.
    • Fire and Steel - +20% to ranged attack of all ranged units, +20% to ranged defense for all melee/cavalry units.
    • Colonialism - All cities on different landmass receive Palace, each city on different landmass does not increase policy/technology cost.
    Penalties
    • Discrimination- Unhapiness from cities with different religion or occupied cities increased.
    • Dark Ages - When no religion in majority of cities (before Renaissance), great people and social policy cost [and technology??] increased by 20%.
    Unique Building
    [*]Borough*
    Unique National Wonder
    [*]National Bank
    Cultural Objectives
    • Conquer or convert capital on other continent. [One Time Boost]
    • Culture for every trade route with other cultural group.
    • Culture for every natural wonder discovered. [One Time Boost]
    • Have the highest gold output in renaissance, or the highest production output in industrial era.
    • ???

    * - because I would like Occident to have any reference to 'barbarian states' and also not being so 'progressive' :p



    SLAVIC CIVILISATIONS - Poland, Russia, Hungary, Lithuania, Czech, Kievan Russia, Bulgaria, I still support Byzantium here :D

    Spoiler :
    Bonuses
    • Antemurale Christianitas - defense increased in city with state religion by each faith point generated*
    • Eastern Cavalry - all mounted units receive promotion, which makes them deal +10% damage for every movement point spent while attacking enemy** :crazyeye:
    • Between Orient and Occident - Faith and culture boost when trade with other Cultural Group.
    • Slavic Empires - +20% production and faith while at war, +20% gold and culture while at peace.
    • Spark of God - Great People provide golden age boost when born.
    Penalties
    • Corruption- Unhappiness for high amount of citizens in cities.***
    • Gate to Europe - Penalty for naval and economic technologies.
    Unique Building
    [*]Seymik - bonus to culture and cavalry production.
    Unique National Wonder
    [*]Royal Castle Unhappiness from number of cities halved, technology cost for cities removed.


    * - up to 50% of 'normal' city defense, or some kind of similar balance.
    ** - I love this idea, but I don't know it is possible to create via lua.
    *** - here some kind of lua magic would be needed to calculate additional unhappiness for tall cities... Why Slavs? Because: eastern Europe was always less inhabited than western, had less Big Cities, more wide empires, and bad luck with political turmoil/uprisings/revolutions/anarchy, and I have no other idea for reflecting that. Initially I thought also about unhappiness for each social policy adopted, but I'm really not sure about this solution...


    Ok, so this is my vision of Europe. I am STILL convinced that Byzantium with its 'religious fortress' and 'powerful cavalry' and 'messy political life' fits rather into Slavs than Classical Group :D

    now, we get the hell out of this booooring Europe...


    ANCIENT CIVILISATIONS - Egypt, Babylon, Sumer, Assyria, Persia, Hittites, Harappa (??) et cetera.

    To be honest, I would prefer adding Persia to Crescent group, because it is rather Wide Rich Empire than Tall Early River Civilisation... And for most of its history, Persia was muslim :p

    Spoiler :
    Bonuses
    • Cradle of Civilisation - science bonus for ancient era techs.
    • Code of Hammurabi - each social policy from Honor and Piety tree gives X happiness/whatever else
    • River Irrigation - fresh water bonus is available since Agriculture/Pottery.
    • Ancient Architecture - internal trade routes provide bonus to wonder construction; they are 50% more effective.
    • Wrath of Tigris - bonus attack for garrisoned units or units attacking enemies adjacent to rivers.
    Penalties
    • Immortal Despotism- each post - ancient social policy tree generates 1 unhappiness for each policy.
    • Stagnation - penalty for discovering medieval technologies.
    Unique Building
    [*]Sewer - provide fresh water on tiles adjacent to city.
    Unique National Wonder
    [*]Golden Throne - Palace yield is doubled.

    Cultural Objectives:
    - Be the first civ to discover Writing or Wheel.
    - Be the first civ to conquer other civs' city.



    BHARATA CIVILISATIONS - India, 4civs from incoming Indian Civs Pack, Sikh, Harappa (??), Nepal, Tibet (??) etc.

    Spoiler :
    Bonuses
    • Spirituality - faith contributes to Great Scientist creation, culture contributes to Great Prophet generation.
    • Bless of Wishnu - writer guild is available since Writing, artist guild since Currency; double great work slots in National Wonders, which provide happiness when filled.
    • Jambu Dweepa - farms and plantations provide +1 food with religion and +1 faith with Philosophy tech.
    • Elephant Army - each Bharata civ can recruit unique units of other Bharata civilisations. Artillery has +1 movement.
    • Urban Centers - each resource tile worked by city increases wonder production by 1%.
    Penalties
    • Overpopulation- each citizen decreases city gold production by 1%, up to 25%.
    • Caste System - unit production speed decreased by 20%.
    Unique Building
    [*]Mandir - faith for every social policy tree finished.
    Unique National Wonder
    [*]Mahal - 3 great works of Art slots, each of them provides +3 gold when filled.

    Cultural Objectives:
    - Be the first or second civ to found a religion (bonus halved for second place)
    - Have the most popular religion in the world
    - X amount of culture per X happiness over 0


    ...and my old three completed Groups:


    AFRICAN CIVILISATIONS - Ethiopia, Nubia, Kilwa, Zulu, Zimbabwe, Kongo, Benin, Nri, Mali, Songhaj, Kanem - Bornu

    I added building ideas.

    Spoiler :

    Bonuses
    • Long - Distance TradeLand trade routes have doubled range.
    • African RichesLand trade routes income bonus from various resources is tripled.
    • Glorious InfantryAll melee pre - Industrial units can randomly receive one of unique African promotions: Elephant (50% chance that defeated enemy unit will provide gold bonus - slaves :( ), Bull (33% chance on double damage), Lion (+33% to defense when adjacent to friendly city) .
    • Tribal CultureTourism from Great Works of Music doubled, each your city receives adjacent Artifact while entering Renaissance Age.
    • Great Bantu MigrationCivilian units' speed is doubled.
    Penalties
    • Slave Trade-25% to speed of creating buildings in cities and terrain improvements.
    • Oral CultureScience from scientific buildings decreased.
    Cultural Objectives
    • Have X number of units with X experience level.
    • Earn X gold via Trade Routes.
    • Don't loose cities to other African civilisations.
    • Have the biggest culture output or land army in the world.
    Unique Building
    [*]Black Market - bonus towards We Love the King Day. Sorry but I couldn't resist with this name :D
    Unique National Wonder
    [*]Royal Court - instant gold and culture boost.




    CRESCENT CIVILISATIONS - Arabia, Ayyubids, Ottoman, Morocco, Persia, Durrani

    I added building ideas.

    Spoiler :

    Bonuses
    • Faith of ProphetsEach world city with non - Crescent religion increases faith by +1, faith gain this way cannot be higher than 66% faith of the most religious non - Crescent civ.
    • Golden Age of IslamEach faith point produced in your cities (no religious CS and 1st ability) gives 1 point of science; half of the science points contribute to Great Prophet accumulation.
    • JihadAll military units gain +15% strenght while fighting with units and cities of civ with other majority religion; bonus doubled for Mounted.
    • Abrahamic ReligionsFree courthouse, halved resistance and culture boost after capturing city with different religion (no bonus while conquering pantheon city!)
    • Thousand NightsEach 5 desert tiles increase Great Writer birth rate by 1, trade routes from desert cities have increased income.
    Penalties
    • Dark Age of Islam-25% to normal science output.
    • Fall of Caliphate+15% to social policy cost .
    Cultural Objectives
    • Conquer X cities of different religion.
    • Have your state religion in majority of your cities.
    • Have at least 3rd faith, cultural or science output in the world (cultural points for every one High Amount of these)
    • Maintain the biggest cavalry army in the world.
    • +X culture boost for each new Great Work of Writing, Great Scientist or trade route created.
    Unique Building
    [*]Jannah - +1 food for desert tiles near the city.
    Unique National Wonder
    [*]Dynastic Library - Thousands Nights bonus doubled; 3 slots for Great Works of Literature, which provide +2 faith and +2 science when filled.





    ORIENTAL CIVILISATIONS - China, Chinese civs, Korea, Vietnam, Japan? :p

    I added buildings ideas.

    Spoiler :

    Bonuses
    • Four Great InventionsResearch pace increased while developing military, cultural or social technologies.
    • BureaucracyEach citizen in city provides X % bonus to culture and production.
    • Rice CultivationAmount of food required to gain new citizen and amount of points required to get Great Person decreased by X % per number of cities in the empire. :crazyeye:
    • Silk RoadNon - Oriental trade route incomes to the city provide increased income for both civilisations
    • Legacy of the Red RiverMilitary bonus for fighting adjacent to enemy or friendly cities, increased by number of citizens of given city.
    Penalties
    • Decline of ConfucianismOwn religious spread and own trade route income decreased by 33%.
    • IsolationPenalty for developing post - Medieval economic and naval technologies.
    Cultural Objectives
    • Be the most technologically developed nation in the world or have the highest tourism in the world.
    • Bonus culture for each Great Work, Wonder or Great Tile Improvement for each Era passed since its rise.
    • Control every yours original city.
    • Culture per each trade route incoming to YOUR civilisation.
    • +X culture for X number of experience points gain by your military units.
    Unique Building
    [*]Academy - units trained here are upgraded for 1/3 cost. [this reflects East Asian adaptation and modernisation, as well as their developed military technology]
    Unique National Wonder
    [*]Imperial Citadel - bonus happiness per citizens/cities.



    ...and FINALLY few single ideas for others - already covered - groups.

    Spoiler :

    Colonial Bonuses:
    - bonus happiness/culture for different religions
    - tourism from great works doubled
    - no science and culture penalty for cities settled after Medieval Era
    - +20% strenght for units fighting outside national territory and -25% experience required for the next level.
    - +5% science and production since industrial era, bonus increases with each era by 5%

    Penalties:
    - -20% strenght for units fighting on national territory :crazyeye: [this reflects lack of big defensive colonial wars for]
    - -15%, -10%, -5% for research in early ages

    So, to sum up, this looks like that: ancient -15% science, classical era -10%, medieval -5%, renaissance 0%, industrial +5%, modern +10%, atomic +15%, information +20%.

    Building - Outpost, instantly grabs 6 tiles near borders
    National Wonders - Independence Vow, instant Golden Age and free Great Person.

    aaand few more buildings' ideas.

    Native American Tribes
    building - Totem - bonus culture/whatever for every great person born in that city
    wonder - Sacred Field - +1 happiness for every camp/pasture

    Native American Civilisations
    building - Obelisk - bonus yield from number of buildings in city
    wonder - Sun Temple - bonus science from terrain improvements in city


    OH MY GOD. That's all. :D

    Please review it, guys ;)

    Also, we should make Final Group Division and already think on few Controversial Civs:
    - Armenia, Israel -> not sure if Ancient, Crescent :p or Slavic Group
    - Nubia, Garamantes -> not sure if Ancient or African Group
    - Goths, Celts -> absolutely no idea here, but IMHO creating separate group for them would be sill :crazyeye:
    - Persia -> as I said, they are really different from other Mesopotamian ancient civilisations - they created not little 'tall' despotic stagnating state, but wide tolerant dynamic empire! Also, for most of their history they believed in Allah :p and for their earliest history they had other monotheistic cults, which would make them more Crescent civ than Ancient one.
    - Tibet -> not sure if Bharata, Oriental or Mandala Group :p
    - Polynesia, Maori, Aborigines, Papua, Siberian natives -> Are we doing separate Pacific group?
    - Japan -> when I thought about it more I decided that they truly deserve on their separate group, for their absolutely unique isolation, sengkoku jidai and samurais, bushido, shinto, manga :D , and unique XIX - XX century insane success - they firstly created military superpower, and later economic superpower. I am going to think on them, I have already few ideas :D
    - If Latin America is going to be separate group, there is only one person here which has enough broad knowledge to design it, dear Mr. Leugi :D

    So, to sum up, Cultural Groups are: American Tribes, American Societies, Colonies, Latin America, Africa, Ancient, Greek - Roman, Muslim, Slavic, Western, Indian, Steppe, Mandala, Oriental, Japanese and Pacific? Oh my God, 16 groups :0
     
  2. Beefie

    Beefie Warlord

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    Happy my ideas could be of some use, take and incorporate them however you see fit as you are the creator after all!
    I did feel uncomfortable including Napoleon with a Royal Families grouping, but I thought it important to include them alongside Spain and England also to ramp up competition between them, which I thought a "Romance" collection might not do, and that was the best name I could come up with.

    Looking back to a problem you had a while ago, would it be possible to change the colour of each civ's UA text to correspond to their Cultural Group rather than a symbol? Thus it wouldn't need to take up any room at all and the Kievan Rus' UA title would be saved :lol:
     
  3. Viregel

    Viregel , The Rt. Hon.

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    That list looks excellent! Also, the Latin group is much needed. Leugi would probably be the best person to ask about this (seeing as he created 90% of the civs covered), although there are quite a few people that have enough knowledge the region on the forums. I also agree with Japan being a separate culture group - I have a couple of ideas for them already.
     
  4. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    I'll give that a try and see how it looks. Thanks for the suggestion.

    A lot of ideas, here, Krajzen. Thank you. Keep them coming! I'll have to sift through them when I do the respective groups, but they'll certainly be helpful.
     
  5. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Which groups are you planning to do next? ;)

    EDIT
    Maybe today I'll think about Japan and Pacific group (and my own ideas for Tribes/Native Societies/Latin America)

    EDIT2
    I think about Mercenaries idea - some expensive as hell but possible way of building other civs unique units... In the same cultural group or from other groups... At least, it IMHO suits Bharata group, with density of Indian civilisations.

    EDIT3
    Ok, building unique units of other cultural groups would be silly. But I really like the idea of expensive ability (Mercenary Guild national wonder required + 2/3x higher gold cost) to build other civs' unique units. This could be possible exclusively for Bharata Group, or possible to all groups (Bharata would have great discount while doing so).
     
  6. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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  7. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    And what do you have? ;)

    Maybe let's start from boring and rather simple Europe/Ancient World ;)
     
  8. COF

    COF Emperor

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    Well since he did Asian peoples, and is currently doing European ones, I'd say that American or African would be the best choice.
     
  9. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    I'm not going to be working like that. I'll release them as I feel comfortable. But, that said, probably the High American and Tribal American after Slavic, because they are the most formulated.
     
  10. senshidenshi

    senshidenshi Switched the Red and Blue channels

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    Filling in some gaps:
    Pacific Civs Polynesia (and the pack), Indonesia, Papua (Gedemo), maybe Shikoku (Homusubi), Ryukyu (Hiram, Homusubi), Phillipines (knightmare13/PrimoXanthous, TPangolin), Yolgnu (TPangolin) (but definitely none of the other Aboriginal civs TPangolin is planning)

    Pros
    • Wooden Rafts - Can embark after Sailing (as opposed to Optics)
    • Islanders - Growth bonus in cities on different continents
    • Diversity - Extra gold from naval trade routes
    • Haka (probably needs a name change) - Combat bonus when using Ancient/Classical Era Units
    • Unnamed - Naval Units receive +1 movement point

    Cons
    • Stagnation - Science penalty after reaching Medieval Era
    • Unnamed - Less gold from land trade routes

    Basically, I'm trying to get a naval based set with less options land-wise. IDK about cultural challenges, though.
     
  11. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    Thanks for the suggestions! I'll certainly keep them in mind when I think of the Polynesians. But Indonesia and Philippines wouldn't go in the same group as Siam and the Khmer?
     
  12. senshidenshi

    senshidenshi Switched the Red and Blue channels

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    SEA history is very complicated. Siam and the Khmer were very closely related, whereas Indonesian culture varies a lot (compare Java to New Guinea to Bali to Timor, etc.) and the Phillipines is pretty much an amalgamation of western and eastern cultures, as TPangolin stated: "Philippines still has Rice Terraces, Carabao, Haciendas, Churches, American Accents etc."

    EDIT: IMO, The other Aboriginal tribes should either be grouped with the American Tribal civs or get their own group.
     
  13. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Lol, own group for Aborigines and Indonesia? Hey men, I know cultural diversity and so on but there should be some borders of fragmentation of civs - if we continue this tendency each civ will have its own cultural group :crazyeye: Because, you know, Austrian Monarchy was very different from German Empire! And American Plain Tribes from Iroquis! And Western/Southern/Eastern African civs from each other! And southern Indian Tamil civs from northern Aryan civs! Mesopotamia is not the same as Eastern shore of Mediterranean!

    In my opinion, there is a danger of too big fragmentation of civs. There should be balance between cultural diversity and gameplay.

    I thought the beginning idea of this mod was that there were very different Cultural Areas of the world history, with civs sharing origins/characteristic features/structure/ethnicity and so on. By the way, from what I know, you know how modern Civilisations are divided?

    Latin American, Western, Orthodox, African, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Confucianist, Japanese civs. That's all, without fragmenting colonial civs/tribes on zillion various little groups.

    In my opinion, Aborigines, Maori, Papua, Polynesian civs, Siberian tribes and whatever - I hate this word, but you know what I mean - relatively primitive nations from Pacific region should be amassed as PACIFIC group. Ability to travel on giant distances, settle cities very far away and in awful places :p and extreme adaptive abilities. By the way, Polynesia maybe didn't have great mausoleums, but IMHO these guys were the best sailors in the history of all mankind. European caravels in XVI century, with fancy technologies... noobs - Polynesian people few thousand years ago colonized goddamn PACIFIC OCEAN with tiny boats and no maps/compasses o_o
     
  14. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    Hm? Indonesia and the Philippines won't be in separate civs, and the Aborigines neither. The former two will either be apart of the Polynesian group, of which the latter and the Maori will be a part, or a part of the South-East Asian group. Probably the former, as the bonuses of the Polynesians will likely make more sense for them.

    Modern civilizations aren't divided like that. Modern civilization is divided on economic principle nowadays, into first, second and third world status - those independent, those co-dependent, and those unsustainable.
     
  15. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png

    Huntington's map of modern civilisations ;) I love this divide.

    Oh, by the way:
    Ryukyu in the Polynesian group?! Ryukyu definitely should be in the Chinese group :0
    also my opinions:
    Israel - ancient east group
    Armenia - ancient east group (but Georgia would be in orthodox/slavs group)

    Also, I am not exactly sure about fragmentation of colonial civs on Latin and non - Latin. From what I see, both groups would have very similar traits - diverse culture, tourism, modern bonuses and so on. Also, second group would feature only Canada, USA and Australia.
     
  16. TPangolin

    TPangolin Just the worst person

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    Best way to solve this debate is:

    Oceania: For Aboriginal and Polynesian civs; very tied to the earth and it's resources - especially natural wonders. Not so good science wise, but it's influence can cover a massive amount of area.

    Oriental: For China, Chinese civs, Korea.

    Mandala: Siam, Indonesia, Burma, Khmer, Champa. Faith and gold oriented.

    Nippon: Japanese Civs. Isolationism.

    Frontier: Australia, Canada, Philippines, America, Mexico - Emergent in Industrial Era, lots of border expansion and focus on Tourism.

    Latin America: Bolivia, Argentina, Brazil, Peru, Paraguay, Gran Colombia. Military and Liberation.
     
  17. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    I find that map a bit arbitrary, but we'll agree to differ on our division of the modern world. Of course, its not really relevant to this project.

    There's no debate. Others are merely offering different ways to interpret the different culture groups. So far, however, I haven't been convinced too far from my original design (creating a Mandala group and dividing the Americans between High and Tribal are two ideas I've adopted, although for the latter this was an idea I had, but just couldn't figure out how to differentiate properly).
     
  18. TPangolin

    TPangolin Just the worst person

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    I recall Pouakai creating a mod that made some civs start with Agriculture and some civs star with Aquaculture. Perhaps this might be useful to integrate into your mod.
     
  19. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    Seems a bit dramatic to start changing the tech tree around like that (granted, it'd just be that, I suppose). What does everyone else think? I kinda like the idea, but am not sure.
     
  20. sukritact

    sukritact Artist and Modder

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    As opposed to a completely new tech; why not integrate the ability to build work boats from the start directly into the traits?

    I maintain that Indonesia, as represented in game, should be part of the Mandala group. I feel we have more in common culturally.
     

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