Cultural Expansion Doesn't Work

[joyous_gard]

Some turns later... Time to pick up the 4th ring SHEEP! That is an important tile. Meanwhile I have no iron and Harun's borders are getting closer to that iron.

 

[aatami]

Borders expand to the whole city radius before expanding more... It's not a bug.

 

[Celevin]

I don't hate it the way it is, but in a game that can often starve the player of 'things to do' this is one way to give some more decisions.

Honestly my cities have so much expansion some games that I'd hate to have to constantly choose the tiles. It would be so much management.

If we're going to add more decisions for the player, look to the obvious. Take out puppets. I'm tired of only getting to run half my empire, and even more tired of feeling gimped if I decide to run the entire thing.

 

[joyous_gard]

Borders expand to the whole city radius before expanding more... It's not a bug.

Look at the image I attached. The image shows that culture will expand 4 tiles before filling out the three tiles radius.

The image shows cultural border expanding to a cow, 4 tiles away from the city while there are unclaimed tiles within 3 tiles from the city.

Expanding on cow 4 tiles away is pointless.

Especially when there are unclaimed tiles within 3 rings.

Especially when there is iron, of which I have none, 4 tiles away.

View the images I attached and try to claim what you claimed. It doesn't stand up.

 

[joyous_gard]

Also, I'm not asking for the ability to choose what tiles to expand to. I'm asking for them to program the system correctly so that way cultural expansion is useful for your empire as opposed to "willy nilly." Sometimes it expands 4 tiles away, sometimes it expands three tiles away, it prefers expanding to unworkable cow as opposed to workable land within three radius. It prefers to expand to unworkable cow as opposed to iron, especially when the player has no iron.

 

[Louis XXIV]

BTW, as I understand it, the emphasis isn't on picking the most useful tiles, it's on naturalistic borders. It follows rivers and mountains most of all (and deemphasizes coastal tiles for the same reason).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Maybe it's trying to add a little bit of randomness...sort of simulating your city's citizens exerting their free will?

Deliberately adding random factors to a strategy game is making it worse on purpose. That is not something to be lauded. Random factors need to have a purpose. This one does not.

You do that by buying the tile you want. Free tiles are arbitrary. Directed tiles cost you. This does not seem a bad trade off.

This argument is wrong because it assumes culture expansions are free, which is obviously false.

In a way I like that it is random, because it adds some unpredictability to it all. But early on in the game it can be frustrating as the difference between getting a luxury or not affects your expansion and usually you don't have a lot of gold to purchase tiles.

Unpredictability is not a bad thing. Random factors that can materially benefit or harm a player without the involvement of actual strategy is a bad thing. I prefer a strategy game that is actually designed as a strategy game. Wanting nonsense random factors is asking for something other than civ, since civ purports to be a strategy title.

If I could direct regular cultural expansion, I would never buy a tile. If I needed a quick luxury, i'd buy a Monument instead and direct it accordingly (especially since Tradition and Liberty's bonus' are a given opening now).

This approach is deliberate bad play. The cost tradeoffs are such that one or the other will not *always* be the most cost-effective approach. This argument tells us that it would somehow be a good idea to throw away potentially 100's of gold per game. No thanks. Allowing control over border pops adds a legit strategy layer, and it's becoming apparent that this choice is not overly obvious without one considering it carefully as this is the 2nd thing I've quoted which made an obvious mistake in cost evaluation of purchase vs culture pop.

I'm personally fine with cultural border pops being the way they are, both from a gameplay

No dice. This argument has been repeated 4-5 times on the first page of this thread. However, it has not had any logical argument support or evidence to back up that things are "fine". OP and dissenters are claiming that this mechanic cuts into strategy that would otherwise exist, that it goes against what the game claims, and that it throws random factors into the game that do not depend materially on strategy. These are valid gameplay attacks on random culture pops, especially given misleading pop tendency implications.

The people saying that they don't like a system where the player has no control over border pops are completely ignoring the tile purchase aspect, which was put in for the exact reason of giving the player control over borders if they're willing to invest in it. You can argue that it's too expensive, but implying that there's no player control of tile spread is entirely unfair.

Who is ignoring what? The first line here is confusing.

People are implying no control or even logical tendency of culture pops, not tile purchases. Tile purchases are a tradeoff, but not particularly relevant to OP assertion that implied culture pop doesn't work or that the random factor is bad for gameplay. Indeed, these issues change the tradeoff between purchase and culture pops...but why center an argument on the former when the latter is the topic under discussion? Purchases allow an up-front acquisition of key tiles faster than the city can ordinarily get culture pops...that isn't an excuse for culture pops to be nonsensical.

I dunno, but heres something you cn do to make the game more enjoyable for yourself, pretend that the people choose where they settle, theres a lot more a person could do for them selfs with weat than iron

I'm interested in how this argument suggests that culture pops are actually working properly in civ V. Can it be clarified?

Borders expand to the whole city radius before expanding more... It's not a bug.

What? I don't understand the implications of this. OP wasn't claiming a bug, he was claiming that mechanics operate differently from what they suggest, and poorly. Are you saying it's poor by design?


All in all, this is a poor, luck-based mechanic with less strategy than it could (and probably should) have. It harms a strategic tradeoff of culture reliance vs purchase reliance and can (in a minor fashion) screw players on luck. I'm interested in a legit gameplay argument in favor of this mechanic in its current form that suggests it's actually "fine". OP and others have heaped some evidence that it is not fine, but rather illogical and bad for the game.

 

[learner gamer]

Borders expand to the whole city radius before expanding more... It's not a bug.

Out of curiosity, is this something you know because you’ve looked at the border pop code or because you’ve observed it in the games you’ve played? I ask BTW because I haven’t seen the code – but your account tallies quite closely with what I’ve observed in games that I’ve played. Joyous gard meanwhile has certainly done a great job of presenting precisely the kind of issues that this kind of border popping produces – both in the written posts and the pics presented throughout this thread. As I’ve mentioned in my earlier posts, I’ve been left exasperated many a time by the choice of hex obtained from a border pop – it seems all too clear to me that resources aren’t valued sufficiently highly when deciding how to pop borders.

The thing is aatami, I’m absolutely certain you’re right: it isn’t a bug, which I define to mean something’s not working as intended. Rather, my best guess is that border popping is working pretty much as the developers intended it to at this point. After all, if it was a high priority bug fix, they’ve had over six months since launch to fix it. More likely is that Louis XXIV is spot on here:

BTW, as I understand it, the emphasis isn't on picking the most useful tiles, it's on naturalistic borders. It follows rivers and mountains most of all (and deemphasizes coastal tiles for the same reason).

In other words, accessing resource tiles is being compromised in the pursuit of aestheticism. As I’ve mentioned in an earlier post however, that in turn forces the player to make non-optimal gameplay choices and doesn’t reward them for making good, strategic choices re: settling city locations. As a result, my view is that the border popping logic is another example of flawed design rather than a bug – and to the extent that it prevents you from working your best tiles early, IMHO, it’s another blow to Civ 5’s credibility as a strategy game.

Going forward, I can see a few possible solutions. The first is that the border popping code remains unchanged, with all the implications that joyous gard and I have mentioned previously. The second possibility is that Firaxis adjusts the border popping code to prioritise grabbing resources earlier, so the city is working its best tiles earlier. An alternative here is to adjust the code to give the gamer the option to choose how borders pop, the micro involved in this being why I think it’s a second best solution.

The other option meanwhile is to allow the modders access to the border popping code (which I understand they don’t have yet), so they can make any changes they see fit / if there’s sufficient demand. Of course, the issue here is that Firaxis aside, no-one knows if or when this code will be released to the modding community, so implementing this solution could well take considerable time.

Faced with this kind of wait – and, more to the point, being frustrated at the sheer lack of things to do in my latest game – I’ve decided FWIW that Firaxis and Civ 5 are no longer worth the wait - and today bought EU3: Chronicles to scratch my strategy gaming itch. Although it’s very, very early, I have to say that initial impressions suggest that I’ve at last found a genuine, grand strategy game, with lots to do and oodles of (well balanced alternative) decisions to make.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I disagree, the dichotomy is clear. Choose your position better, found a second city, purchase tiles, or take the chance. Not everything in a strategy game is controllable, especially in a history-based strategy game that wants to make some concessions to reality.

 

[joyous_gard]

4th ring cow aesthetics shall not stand! Since you guys don't want to give me that 4th ring iron, it should have expanded to workable tile within the 3rd ring, south of the river (see images 1 and 2).

It expanded to 4th ring cow before expanding to a "natural" location south of the river within my borders... I have seen cultural borders limited by a mountain range and that makes sense. I have also seen the cultural border pop over a mountain range to get a luxury resource - but that was the exception to the rule.

So in my example with the images... it expands to 4th ring cow, then fills in some tiles within the 3 ring city radius, then jumps out to grab 4th ring sheep (image 3) before filling in the three ring border.

In terms of appearance or "naturalness" I do not see an aesthetic difference between the 4th ring cow, sheep, or iron. It should be on a necessity basis. If I was directing a civilization I would say "Hey you guys, we can't work that sheep so let's exert our influence on that iron which we can work."

I don't understand how they are going to program cultural borders "naturally." There are certain hard limits (mountain ranges, rivers, oceans pre sailing/lighthouse) and there are certain necessities (civ has no iron and iron is one away). If I had iron from another source I could envisage the city's border director saying "don't sweat the iron guys, we have some."

The current border expansion is not random but it isn't working correctly either. I don't know if they should bother trying to fix it, but there's no way to document how it behaves.

It bugs me sometimes because there are times when I buy 4 or 5 tiles to get my border next to a 4th ring resource that I don't have and rather than doing the natural thing of snapping up the 4th ring resource I don't have, it just kind of expands helter skelter around.... sometimes claiming useful tiles within the three ring, sometimes claiming 4 3rd ring empty ocean tiles in a row, sometimes claiming a mountain that is within the 3 ring.

Let's get some documentation at least on how it is supposed to work. They can't really call it random. Beyond hard, natural boundaries (rivers [pre roads], mountain ranges, oceans), they can't really call it "natural or aesthetic." Objectively, that iron is critical to my nation's survival, while the sheep has no effect on my nation's survival. Aesthetically, or naturally, there is no difference between the two tiles.

From my experience with the game, the documentation would be something like this: The first 2 culture pops will most likely help you out, after that, we don't know what it is going to do. Most of the time it will help you out but as your cultural border expands more and more, the expands become more and more random.

 

[Polycrates]

I think it mostly does a pretty good job how it is, and the algorithm for choosing new tiles seems to have improved in one of the patches anyway (it now seems considerably less averse to hills, for starters). I agree, it looks like they could alter 4th-ring border pops to go for luxury/strategic resources first, but frankly if you're relying on 4th-ring borders for your crucial resources you should have built another city.
And manual border popping would be a micromanagement hell beyond anything even Civ IV threw up. I like it auto, and I like how it gives settling decisions that are a little more nuanced than just "how many resources can I cram into a 3-tile radius".

 

[Polycrates]

Let's get some documentation at least on how it is supposed to work. They can't really call it random. Beyond hard, natural boundaries (rivers [pre roads], mountain ranges, oceans), they can't really call it "natural or aesthetic." Objectively, that iron is critical to my nation's survival, while the sheep has no effect on my nation's survival. Aesthetically, or naturally, there is no difference between the two tiles.

Thalassicus would be the person to ask about this, since I know he modded the formula at one point.
Here's my understanding of the model. Broadly, it favours second-ring before third ring before fourth-ring, flatland before forests before hills before coast before mountains. It seems now to mostly favour second-ring forests/hills before third ring flatland (which used not to be the case). It favours riverside first and lakeside second, but strongly disfavours tiles on the other side of a river your city isn't directly adjacent to (or at least across a river where you have no claimed tiles on the other side). It favours tiles with two neighbouring tiles already in your territory. And it favours resources with pretty high strength, enough to often override all these factors (it also seems to favour expansion to tiles adjacent to resources - i.e. if you settle on completely even flatland with a cow in the third ring, it will expand to the second ring tiles on the cow side first). I don't know which resources it favours over others, though from the OP's example (and consistent with the rest of the model) it seems to favour high-food and luxury resources first. So every potential tile gets a weight from all these factors, and the highest-weighted tile becomes the next pop (or a random one of the highest-weighted ones if there's a tie.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I disagree, the dichotomy is clear. Choose your position better, found a second city, purchase tiles, or take the chance. Not everything in a strategy game is controllable, especially in a history-based strategy game that wants to make some concessions to reality.

Concessions to reality need a gameplay argument. Non strategy elements in a strategy game are grating.

Especially when the strategy is actually reduced.

I'm still waiting for a convincing pro-gameplay argument for leaving it as-is. "random stuff exists in strategy games" is not a convincing argument, it isn't even an argument and it sure as heck isn't being supported.

but frankly if you're relying on 4th-ring borders for your crucial resources you should have built another city.

Frankly, that is often bad play.

 

[jojorah]

i wasnt saying order expansion worked, but if it makes the game more enjoyable pretend that the people dont really want military resources

 

[Louis XXIV]

Concessions to reality need a gameplay argument. Non strategy elements in a strategy game are grating.

Especially when the strategy is actually reduced.

I'm still waiting for a convincing pro-gameplay argument for leaving it as-is. "random stuff exists in strategy games" is not a convincing argument, it isn't even an argument and it sure as heck isn't being supported.

Gameplay argument? It boosts the value of Great Artists. It encourages you to seek one and use it to expand your border. It boosts the value of tile purchasing. It boosts the value of having even more culture (to speed up that expansion). It encourages you to choose your city location more carefully in order to incorporate a crucial resource inside the border. All these options would be seriously weakened if you could exercise a lot of control over border expansion.

 

[jdog5000]

Digging through XML, here's how the system works: The game calculates a score for each plot around the city, and it will then pick one of the plots with the lowest score (plot influence cost).

Things which increase costs, from GlobalDefines, CIV5Features.xml, and CIV5Terrain.xml:

Ring cost: 100
Water cost: 25
Improvement cost: -5
Route cost: 0
Resource cost: -105
Natural Wonder cost: -105
Yield point cost: -1

Grass: 1
Plains: 1
Desert: 2
Tundra: 2
Snow: 2
Ocean: 3
Mountain: 0
Hill: 0

Ice: 2
Jungle: 1
Marsh: 1
Oasis: -1
Floodplains: -1
Forest: 1
Atoll: -1
Natural wonders: -3


Not sure exactly how these numbers are added up, but I can make an educated guess:

4th ring cow on grass: 400 - 105 (resource) + 1 (grass) - 3 (yield) = 293
3rd ring forest hill: 300 + 1 (forest) - 3 (yield) = 298
4th ring iron on desert: 400 - 105 (resource) + 2 (desert) - 1 (yield) = 296

(EDIT: forest hill has yield three because it's on the river)

The math doesn't quite work out that way ... I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that yields and terrains are maybe multiplied by 10, that would make it:

4th ring cow on grass: 400 - 105 (resource) + 10 (grass) - 30 (yield) = 275
3rd ring forest hill: 300 + 10 (forest) - 30 (yield) = 280
4th ring iron on desert: 400 - 105 (resource) + 20 (desert) - 10 (yield) = 305

Something like that. My sense is that the only thing random in the selection system is which tile to pick when several have the same value, otherwise it's deterministic following a formula like the above.


So, why does it not give joyous gard the iron he/she needs?

1) Looks to me like all different resource types are treated the same, so the formula doesn't differentiate between bonus, luxury, and strategic.

2) The formula apparently doesn't ignore bonus resources outside the city's workable range as it probably should.

3) Desert tiles may get double penalized because they have no base yield, making iron and oil which appear in deserts harder to get.

 

[Callonia]

I got a fairly simple solution to your problem.... settle a tundra port city to the north east, then Iron should be in your reach immediately, purchase it. And start hooking it up.

Or, if you have that much of distaste for tundra/snow. Settle a city to the east, it looks like a lake or coast. Start buying hexs til you reach the iron.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Give a go at Gedemon's Cultural diffusion or keep settling in a less random pattern or spend Gold on what your need or, or.

Now you may say what's that got to do with resource tiles within reasonable range?
*Your* strategy is much more than a lucky simulation of conditions.

An even more direct solution, in fact... edit_mod_redesign AssignStartingPlots.lua and most probably a few more of its usual companions; MapGenerator.lua, FeatureGenerator.lua, etc.

 

[Teperi Blaze]

I don't see a problem here at all, except the random factors. Which I ignore anyways.

Just plant a city SE of the iron...yep, counted 5 tiles between the spot and the Arabian town and likewise with your existing city. Hook it up and upgrade your stuff to longswords before Harun get's too antsy. Surely 6 LS can back down even an Immortal sook? Or what level you're playing here.

You have 2 more iron to your NE.

I've played maps where I had to walk almost all over the map to grab iron, so this one is easy.

 

[joyous_gard]

You guys are missing the problem. It's not that I was really dying to have the iron. It's a low level game. I understand that you can build a settler and make a new city (what's a settler?). That also wasn't the point.

The images I have attached are not from some critical world championship. It was just the very next game I played after the game where I lost out on oil due to the same mechanics. A bunch of people talk about how they understood cultural expansion and that it worked great, but they didn't have any evidence, so I just started a new game and this bizarre expansion begins.

The point is that the cultural programming currently favors expanding to useless stuff. Cow and Sheep are not resources that can be utilized in any effective manner in the 4th or 5th ring and their weight should be reduced at 4th or 5th ring expansion. Iron on the other hand does have value in any ring, especially if there is no iron in the civilization.

These aren't random factors that are preventing me from getting a useful 4th tile resource and enabling me to get a useless 4th tile resource. It's programmed that way and it doesn't make sense. The cultural expansion code should be improved.