Culture Ruins

[Xile]

Is it ever worth getting anything but tradition if you pop a culture ruin on turn 3 or something? I mean picking liberty and being forced to sit on 3 cites or getting dogpiled by your friendly neighborhood alex and someone else doesn't seem too appealing, for example.

 

[The Pilgrim]

How does dogpile have anything to do with culture ruin?
For the actual question, IMO, culture ruin shouldn't affect your SP tree choice. Land and VC should. You can pick Liberty and get free units faster if you're planning to go wide and pick Tradition and get Legalism faster if you're planning to go tall.

 

[Xile]

Well, Oligarchy helps you defend albeit not much, if you blindly pick into liberty and start close to couple of aggressors it's tougher. Well, you don't know what land you have if you get an early culture ruin. Say on turn 3, you get the policy pop on turn 8, your scout's has been out for at most 3 turns and you probably haven't even met an AI yet or know if there is even enough space for more than a couple of cities due to CSs and whatnot. ALso, the only time I know what VC I am gonna pursue is when I play culture.

What I was asking, what do people do when they're forced to pick a policy blind?

 

[The Pilgrim]

Oh, that's the question of the week, I think. In vanilla there was no question. Now it's different. And hopefully there won't be a cookie cutter answer ever again. Probably I'll go for Tradition opener, because it doesn't hurt in any case.

 

[Polycrates]

I think even if I'm "probably" planning to go wide with Liberty or even go on the attack with Honour, I would be most likely to take the Tradition opener if it was truly blind. The extra early speed for policy generation will have petered out and started hindering well before finishing any of the trees, but it's enough to still carry you to the free settler or the GG and the discipline boost - maybe a bit slower but not enough to worry about too much (someone could probably do the maths with Liberty), and the extra border growth is always nice. Plus you can delay monument much longer which speeds up workers or archers etc. And if you don't continue with Tradition, you can always take Legalism later for some free buildings. So it's definitely the "safest" of the three openers in that it hurts you the least if you choose wrong.

That said:
If my capital is a rotten site, I'd go straight to Liberty or Honour.
If I meet someone else within the very early turns, that suggests they're close enough to be an early opportunity/threat, so I would probably proceed with any plans I had to go Honour.
If I've already scouted out enough good land for maybe two more good cities, I would still go for Liberty. That's enough for the settler policy to still be totally worthwhile, I think.
If I've built a monument or am close to finishing a monument, I would go with whichever tree I was initially planning for.

 

[playshogi]

I like to take Liberty and finish it as fast as possible for the Great Scientist (academy). Every policy in that tree is so useful compared to Tradition which has a couple of duds: oligarchy, and wonder building. The free aqueducts? Aqueducts can be bought for 400 about when you need them around size 8-9.

 

[Khadroth]

I like to finish Liberty asap too, but for the Great Admiral on Continents. I'm coming off a game where I was literally a turn from losing my capital and my army due to a joint war with China and Carthage. If not for that admiral discovering Rome a few turns earlier and Russia that turn, I'd have been just too short on money to get that extra composite bowman. In the end, Beijing is mine, and Carthage became my friend after I rallied and squashed her army. 5 archers might be enough to bring your capital to 0 hit points, but they'll only take if they have a warrior left alive to do so.

 

[Full Metal]

I like to take Liberty and finish it as fast as possible for the Great Scientist (academy). Every policy in that tree is so useful compared to Tradition which has a couple of duds: oligarchy, and wonder building. The free aqueducts? Aqueducts can be bought for 400 about when you need them around size 8-9.

That wonder building policy is the meat and potatoes in a wonder-building game. If I'm lucky enough to get marble with a couple hills, look out! Set the manufactories, and pump out a wonder every ten turns, give or take a couple. A couple more manufactories, and it's every 6 turns or so.

 

[Naresh]

Oligarchy isn't a dud, just very defensive, compared to the more neutral abilities of other policies.

Can't remember if it's +50% or +30%, but when combined with the +30% pantheon you have a decisively defensive city with a free archer sitting in it. -granted other pantheons are more useful, but we're talking defense here

Of course, this isn't meant for the wide, liberty loving civs (though still useful) or the warmongerers who fight wars far from their own borders.

But try a multiplayer game against Ethiopia in jungle terrain with this policy and that pantheon... I lost 20 units without him even breaking a sweat. Even with a tech advantage

 

[Tabarnak]

The free aqueducts? Aqueducts can be bought for 400 about when you need them around size 8-9.

These aqueducts(and free monuments) save you 8 gpt. You can put your gold into cs instead. The Tradition finisher is just awesome for production and science.

 

[Trik]

You don't even need the tech for the free aqueducts.

 

[Denkt]

I like to take Liberty and finish it as fast as possible for the Great Scientist (academy). Every policy in that tree is so useful compared to Tradition which has a couple of duds: oligarchy, and wonder building. The free aqueducts? Aqueducts can be bought for 400 about when you need them around size 8-9.

A setttler and a worker can be purcased with around 800 gold with is about 2 aqueducts, but you get 4 aqueducts and with the other things people have pointed out its not a bad finisher.

I can also coment that liberty's finisher makes the next great person cost more, the finisher will only give you 100 great person points and a early great person which does not sound like being far above what the tradition gives in its finisher

 

[DutchJob]

In Liberty I find the Representation SP (-33% cost growth) the only real temptation.

Tradition makes my games feel more 'smooth'. Free buildings, faster Wonders and high pop cities plus more with Monarchy.

 

[Calouste]

You don't even need the tech for the free aqueducts.

IMO the main benefit is not getting 4 free aqueducts, it's getting the aqueduct in your capital a lot earlier. Plus of course you get 15% additional growth with the Tradition finisher.