Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

[Krajzen]

So, the question is, what African EM culture are we going to get.

Alphabetically impossible: Ashanti, Angola, Abissynia, Adal, Benin, Dahomey, Igbo,

Alphabetically possible: Kanem, Kongo, Matamba, Mossi, Ndongo, Merina, Oromo, Oyo, Rozwi, Somali, Songhai, Yoruba.

I think there are two main possibilites: either Kongo/Matamba/Ndongo with Agrarian/Aestethe/Militarist focus, or Songhai with Militarist/Expansionist focus.

Songhai seems probable due to size and Ghana continuity, but it would be third expansionist next to Ottos and Spain; also, we didn't get Mali, and Mali - Songhai continuity would be natural. Meanwhile something from Kongo area would cover one of not too crowded niches, also would fill geographic emptiness and lead to Zulu. For now I am leaning towards Kongo/Matamba/Ndongo.

I still have no idea whether Poland and Venice are really going to get in, and what affinity would EM Poland get other than agrarian... All other affinities seem ridiculous to me. I'd actually be fine if we got Sweden in EM era actually, not industrial, with it being militarist. Would be something very fresh and filling the militarist gap.

 

[mitsho]

Venice would really be a strange choice since they seem so much more like a political entity than a culture. Because it kinda implies we should get Florence, Miland and the Papal States as well.

Are we sure to get an African culture here? I'd add Zanzibar or Swahili to the list. They should rather be Industrial, but they would be Merchants and Amplitude seems to go for a stereotype in that regard... ;-)

Sweden can be either Early Modern or Industrial. The 30 years war happened in the Early Modern era, but Industrial parallels them with Russia, so... . There are just too many Europeans to fit into every slot

So if I've got it right, we expect Ming or the Wild Card (tm) tomorrow, right? (Wild Card in that in most predictions there seems to be one spot left to be filled creatively).

 

[Jcturmer]

Did you see that? Cultures from the industrial Era.
https://www.reddit.com/gallery/i1509s

 

[Narcisse]

@mitsho Venice would not really be a so strange choice if Ottomans are in Early Modern. Some of the culture choices seems to be "scenarii related" sometimes. Like Romans with Huns, Goths, Carthagians. To add spice to some encounter.
And Venitians were one of the interesting european opponent of the Ottomans in Early Modern. So for me it looks an interesting and plausible choice. (if Ottomans are in ofcourse)
Obviously I would like to have an aesthete Renaissance Italians representation in the game. An Italian blob will be weird, maybe later a Tuscans addition, crossed fingers ! And I easily imagine they could be some Italian citystates in the game.

@Jcturmer Yes I made this thread because on the discord we don't have good idea for the 4/4. The City Center is really hard to identify. If someone have another idea than a Chapultepec Castle lookalike or Palacio Nacional de Mexico, you are welcome^^

Tommorow, Ming or a surprise I suppose !

 

[mitsho]

Did you see that? Cultures from the industrial Era.
https://www.reddit.com/gallery/i1509s

Many wonders, otherwise a huge city, a bit monotone. Is there any info we can read out of that? I can't really tell.

@mitsho Venice would not really be a so strange choice if Ottomans are in Early Modern. Some of the culture choices seems to be "scenarii related" sometimes. Like Romans with Huns, Goths, Carthagians. To add spice to some encounter.
And Venitians were one of the interesting european opponent of the Ottomans in Early Modern. So for me it looks an interesting and plausible choice. (if Ottomans are in ofcourse)
Obviously I would like to have an aesthete Renaissance Italians representation in the game. An Italian blob will be weird, maybe later a Tuscans addition, crossed fingers ! And I easily imagine they could be some Italian citystates in the game.

What makes Venice different from Genoa, Milan, Florence, Rome, Torino, Naples, Sicily, Pisa, Verona, Bologna? Wouldn't it be strange if one of them is a 1/10 worldwide, while the others are city states? I am sorry, it still feels strange to me to have Venice and not Italy.

They also chose Greece, and not Athens by the way.

Again, no need to discuss, there's no right answer here. I am just not convinced.

 

[Narcisse]

We can see the City Center and Emblematic Quarter changing on each screen. So we can suppose than it is industrial Siamese, industrial Russia, industrial Persia (?), and one industrial south-american culture (maybe). So we can speculate about EQs and EUs : the purpose of this topic. In the opendev outro we can see some Polish hussars and one elephant with a gatling gun. And some units looking like Janissaries, but it's not really sure, it's maybe just a skin for generic musketeers.

Siam : EQ : Floating market EU : Gatling Elephant
Russian : EQ : Russian church EU : Cossaks CC : Catherine Palace
Persia : EQ : Bazaar EU : Zamburak CC : Ali Qapu palace lookalike


Yes, for Italy we will see in some weeks. I don't think than the Greek exemple demonstrate something similar in my humble opinion
> The culture name is not Venice, but Venitians, and Venitians had a lot of interesting territories : Dalmatia, Creta, Peloponnes, Korfu, Cyprus ... and they left Venetian architecture in all these places.
If the Galleas we can see in a screenshot is really an Emblematic Unit, it don't really fit with the whole italian culture. But it's maybe just a skin for a generic Galleon unit btw !

 

[Siptah]

Venice is the blueprint for the following European colonial empires in many ways. Not that it was the first trade or merchant republic in Italy, nor the only one or ever unchallenged. Venice probably lost as many wars as it won even during its heyday, just like everyone during the Italian wars. Yet, for early modern, it’s a somewhat strange choice: it‘s actually on the decline at the beginning of this era, and as a stand-in for Renaissance Italy, it’s also a suboptimal choice as it is quite a cultural stand-out in many ways. It‘s still regarded as one of the big five of the era (with Florence, Naples, Rome and Milan), so it is not totally left field, but, at least to me, odd. Italy was not unified, but the idea of Italy (and the one of a unified Europe based on regions btw) existed and was uttered frequently enough. So why not combine the big five and their more or less independent satellites of importance and simply use Italians as culture? I‘d rather have Ferrara, Mantua and Urbino, lighthouses of humanism and culture, in the city list for early modern than the colonies of Negroponte, Korfu or the endlessly rebellious Crete.

 

[Narcisse]

I don't really have a good knowledge about Venetians, I just see a map of their whole territories and see some Venetians architecture/fort in Greece vacation IIRC. but thanks for these informations @Siptah !
And the first time I see Venetians mentioned for Humankind, I really thought they will be in medieval.
Ah, the second clue about Venetians in HK, is their flag in the tech tree mockup in one of the focus video. But It will maybe be just an artwork for an economic tech.

 

[pineappledan]

Wonder if the industrial “Persian” empire might be the Durrani in that case? That would be a great choice.

 

[Krajzen]

Wonder if the industrial “Persian” empire might be the Durrani in that case? That would be a great choice.

I think it's probably just "Iranians" (Zand, Qajar Iran, aestethe focus) as a followup to "Persians", but Durrani (or "Afghans") are a probability as well.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Venice would not really be a so strange choice if Ottomans are in Early Modern. Some of the culture choices seems to be "scenarii related" sometimes. Like Romans with Huns, Goths, Carthagians. To add spice to some encounter.

As far as I know, this was taken into account, though of course it was only one of many factors. Still, it does add some spice to run into Carthage as Rome, or into Edo Japan as Joseon.

I am sorry, it still feels strange to me to have Venice and not Italy.

Hmmm...

 

[mitsho]

Hmmm...

. Thanks for that helpful comment.

Let me rephrase that though. Venice would feel strange taking one slot in comparison to f.e. the Ming, the Spanish or the Mughals. I don't really see the need for Italy either to be honest in that context. I can see the arguments though and won't be disappointed, I just don't feel these arguments yet...

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Well, I was just trying to imply that I don't disagree that Venice without Italy would feel strange to some people...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, I was just trying to imply that I don't disagree that Venice without Italy would feel strange to some people...

My interpretation - not to put words into the cat's mouth - is that it means that having Venice does not preclude having Italy in a later Era, since historically, the political entity of 'Italy' did not exist between the 6th and 19th centuries CE.

 

[Jcturmer]

I'm sad because I would like Morocco in the industrial Era instead Iran, but anyway it's a uncommon election.

 

[Siptah]

I'm sad because I would like Morocco in the industrial Era instead Iran, but anyway it's a uncommon election.

I would prefer Iran in early modern or contemporary to an industrial iteration. Or really in any other age, also in antiquity ;-) yet, I would be glad if there is just more than one Iran in total, which seems not unlikely with this screenshot.

Morocco would be a perfect fit for indistrial, with or without some pirate bonuses.

 

[mitsho]

My interpretation - not to put words into the cat's mouth - is that it means that having Venice does not preclude having Italy in a later Era, since historically, the political entity of 'Italy' did not exist between the 6th and 19th centuries CE.

I see no reason why two cultures cannot be named the same. Apparently, Amplitude does (Edo Japanese), but even that isn't quite clear yet. Maybe they just wanted Japan in there for name recognition. So no, your answer doesn't ease my uneasiness over "The Venetians". But it points back towards the old discussion we've been having in regards to political and cultural entities. Has Greece really been politically unified in the classical era? Weren't the Harappans probably not more of a cultural group? What about the Goths? And do "the Teutons" represent the Holy Roman Empire, the Teutonic Order or even to a degree the Kingdom of Bohemia which means Czech History? It probably refers to all of them.

Long story short, no political unification or stability isn't a good reasoning and I didn't project over several eras. Cat maybe did, so your interpretation could be true. I simply didn't think so far.

And I have to agree, I wouldn't have put Iran/Modern Persia in the Industrial era either. I'm not sure Morocco would be in the same group either (if we can have Franks and Teutons... ;-). However, Oman would be my pick for Industrial Era "Arabs".

 

[Jcturmer]

I believed that the moroccans would be there because Morocco shared history with France during the 19th century.
But I suppose they can always be added later along with the Incas. We've never had a post-achaemenic Persia in civ and that part of the world needs to give it a little love too.

 

[Krajzen]

"Industrial era" (let's say 1750 - 1914) is indeed a sort of a comparable dark age for Iran. But if it get's in, with an Aestethe affinity, I'm fine with it. Persian art, architecture, calligraphy, carpets, and general vibe of global respect towards Persian aestethics were mighty in this era, and Zand/Qajars were great patrons of culture even if they were unable to do Second Japan thing (but again, nobody was able to do that). Industrial era aestethe Iran would be a summary of enormous Persian cultural influence and reputation, and much less controversial affirmation of "modern" Iran that making it literally in the modern age and expansionist/militarist/religious.

Iran 1914 - 1979 was in arguably worse shape, when compared with Europe, than 1750s or 1850s Iran. Iran 1979 - 2020 is mostly known for all wrong reasons. Even though it has actually managed to reach great jumps in quality of life.

Although I do have one offtop silver lining: despite theocracy, modern Iran has witnessed an enormous growth on science, tech, publications and education. It is on top of the Islamic world, reaching Eastern Europe levels of publications/per capita, and it has actually faster growth in science than China over last decades. The first woman who got Fields medal happened few years ago and was Iranian. If there was "future era" in this game, then scientist affinity wouldnt be as insane as you'd think...

 

[Narcisse]

Actually we are not sure about industrial Persia with the screenshot related. The CC have a little part looking like Ali Qapu palace, but it's not exactly the same building. So it's maybe something else, maybe Morroco. Hard to say.
It's a reason why I like speculation threads; I really hope someone will clearly identify some of the CC or the EQ from footage.

For exemple the industrial Russian are clearly identified in the screenshot : the CC is the Catherine Palace with all litte details (even the little golden towers).
Siamese one, I don't know if it is a specific palace, but we highly recognize the architecture.

I hope to see in Industrial Era, at the release or later in dlc, cultures which are really important for this specific era, but which are rarely represented in historical games. (because too often represented for earlier or later era, or totally forgotten)