Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . Explanations for weirdest choices:
Poland agrarian actually makes a lot of sense if you know about early modern Poland and how its economy and society worked.
French builder mainly because I had no idea where to put it otherwise, and not only some European culture should have it in the Industrial era, this is the era when they have built Eiffel Tower

- and the Suez Canal, and attempted the Panama Canal, and rebuilt Paris almost completely. Good Call.

Swedish scientist because of Nobel, Linnaeus, Celsius etc.
America merchant because American Capitalism is probably its most iconic affinity.

- and as early as the 1830s America already had the second largest merchant fleet in the world, after Britain: "aggressively expansionist merchant' if there were multiple Affinities!

German scientist - I really, really hope they won't make MODERN CULTURE GERMAN, AFFINITY: MILITARIST and instead promote incredible achievements of their science.

Not only 'pure' science, like Humboldt and Planck and their ilk, but Applied Science, as in the German technical schools system of the late Industrial and later Eras, the World's foremost chemical, metallurgical, and pharmaceutical industries in the early 20th century, and premier machine tools fabrication even today.

Iroquis agrarian because of their very unique society and also themes of, ya know, harmony with nature as opposed to ruthless industrialized exploitation.

Actually, less on any 'tree hugging' than the fact that without draft animals, it doesn't make a lot of sense to clear large fields for plowing. On the other hand, the 'three sisters' (maize, beans and squash) agricultural system they adopted was one of the most efficient in the world at providing a balanced diet while maintaining most of the existing eco-system: THAT should be acknowledged in a Historical 4X game, finally!

Italy builder because of Italian industry.

I assume you mean Italian light industry, because in traditional Heavy Industry (iron, steel) Italy was in near-last place for most of the Industrial and post-Industrial Eras. In WWII, the Italian Army was the least-motorized and least-mechanized of any major power other than China and Japan, and her aircraft and tank production was the least of all the major protagonists - in fact, she never managed to produce a medium tank (30 tons weight or better) at all.
It would be a tough call, but I'd be more tempted to make Italy Cultural/Aesthete based on its dominance in the fields of Opera and Fashion/Clothing design.

Soviet expansionist because very few cultures deserves this affinity in the modern era anyway, and they were probably the most succesful in this aspect.

Unsuccessful Expansionist, though. While they 'expanded' over their neighbors (with the notable exceptions of Finland, Iran and Afghanistan) they lost virtually all of it in 1991 - 1992 when the Soviet Empire fell apart like a soggy pretzel. On the other hand, the Soviet State from Stalin to the end was heavily Militarized, with an economy and structure almost totally devoted to military production and sustainment. IF they are going to emphasize the non-WWII aspects of Japan and Germany, the Soviet Union is about the only major Militarist state left.

fEthiopia Militarist, because adding this affinity to most modern cultures feels denigrating, while in case of Ethiopia it feels heroic: resistance to colonialism (famous 1895), stubborn ww2 resistance, moderate underdog marxists winning civil war against insane communist regime...

There were two battalions of Ethiopian troops in the United Nation's contingents in the Korean War: my father was attached to them, and met men wearing a little badge with a silver spear on a blue background - signifying that they had defended their country with a spear, against the Italians 10 years earlier. The Ethiopians were, man for man, among the most effective infantry in Korea . . .

 

[Krajzen]

- and the Suez Canal, and attempted the Panama Canal, and rebuilt Paris almost completely. Good Call.

You made me remind myself that, on top of that, incredibly important urban planner Le Corbusier was Swiss - French (more French really - got French citizenship 30 years before death and died in France).

Not only 'pure' science, like Humboldt and Planck and their ilk, but Applied Science, as in the German technical schools system of the late Industrial and later Eras, the World's foremost chemical, metallurgical, and pharmaceutical industries in the early 20th century, and premier machine tools fabrication even today.

That's why it really annoys me how they always get this stupid stereotype of militarist angry Germans in civ, or at best militarist - angry - crude - industrialist Germans...

Actually, less on any 'tree hugging' than the fact that without draft animals, it doesn't make a lot of sense to clear large fields for plowing. On the other hand, the 'three sisters' (maize, beans and squash) agricultural system they adopted was one of the most efficient in the world at providing a balanced diet while maintaining most of the existing eco-system: THAT should be acknowledged in a Historical 4X game, finally

That's even better than I have thought, and one more reason to make them Agrarian. Now I am "certain" they will get it.

I assume you mean Italian light industry, because in traditional Heavy Industry (iron, steel) Italy was in near-last place for most of the Industrial and post-Industrial Eras. In WWII, the Italian Army was the least-motorized and least-mechanized of any major power other than China and Japan, and her aircraft and tank production was the least of all the major protagonists - in fact, she never managed to produce a medium tank (30 tons weight or better) at all.

Yeah, but modern era goes all the way to 2030 IIRC, and Italy after ww2 has built one of the most powerful industries in the world. In 1980s Italy was also fifth most powerful economy in the world in GDP PPP. It is also around 7th place in the world regarding scientific publications (https://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?year=2019) and they'd be fine being modern scientist culture as well (if you discounted the fact China and India became so massive in science only across last three decades, they'd be 5th ). So, up to 5th place in 20th century economy and science, despite being between 10th - 23rd places in population.
I am also against modern Italy being Aestethe because that's such an agressive stereotype: "oh Italians can't put their mind to logical thinking [despite being massively powerful in mentioned areas], they are a nation of artists".

Unsuccessful Expansionist, though. While they 'expanded' over their neighbors (with the notable exceptions of Finland, Iran and Afghanistan) they lost virtually all of it in 1991 - 1992 when the Soviet Empire fell apart like a soggy pretzel. On the other hand, the Soviet State from Stalin to the end was heavily Militarized, with an economy and structure almost totally devoted to military production and sustainment. IF they are going to emphasize the non-WWII aspects of Japan and Germany, the Soviet Union is about the only major Militarist state left.

Yeah, but Ethiopia may take militarist badge, and we are in a dire need of ANY modern expansionist, and can you show me another 20th century state which had such massive expansionist ambitions, and actually was manage to expand its influence over so many of them to such degree, all while already integrating (by horrible force, but effectively ) such enormous land territory?
"United States"
Oh. Yes.
But Soviets perfectly fit Expansionist affinity, and America - Merchant.

 

[mitsho]

Very good calls.

Ethiopia militarist is inspired. I totally agree on French Builders, Haussmann and so. I can see expansionist for Brazil, Australia or Canada as well. You know, "taming the wild". China of course as well. Germany an era earlier is very good at being scientific, but thinking of the saying "Land der Dichter und Denker", I just wish they could be aesthetes as well.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Actually, less on any 'tree hugging' than the fact that without draft animals, it doesn't make a lot of sense to clear large fields for plowing. On the other hand, the 'three sisters' (maize, beans and squash) agricultural system they adopted was one of the most efficient in the world at providing a balanced diet while maintaining most of the existing eco-system: THAT should be acknowledged in a Historical 4X game, finally!

We can also acknowledge that this system was originally developed by mesoamericans.

Mesoamericans dont even need the specific lake related Chinampa, the Milpa is the base of mesoamerican agriculture on any terrain.
Maize, beans and squash was the foundation but there are also: tomatoes, chilis, swet potato, chia, amaranth, nopal, maguey, avocado, guava, etc.
Not to forget that vanilla and cacoa is also mesoamerican, and the significative inclusion of insects on their diet, plus the domestication of turkey.

The mesoamerican region was the most populated area of the Americas until around the transition between 18th to 19th century.

South american cultures could have specific agriculture bonus like Mochicas on desert and Incas on mountains, but if a native american culture should have credit as "the most efficient" agriculture system should be a mesoamerican one.

 

[notNamed]

Actually, less on any 'tree hugging' than the fact that without draft animals, it doesn't make a lot of sense to clear large fields for plowing. On the other hand, the 'three sisters' (maize, beans and squash) agricultural system they adopted was one of the most efficient in the world at providing a balanced diet while maintaining most of the existing eco-system: THAT should be acknowledged in a Historical 4X game, finally!

The Mesoamericans still created massive fields to feed their populations. Draft animals or not, they simply had to. We are more efficient at making food than at any previous point in human history and we still have to strip everything bare when we want to feed our cities.


This drawing of Copan is based on archaeological findings (and yeah, the white coloration is quite dubious) of just the urban core of the city.
A Mayan city, this urban sprawl of fields and houses covered some 12 km along the river, about 2 km on both sides of it (so very roughly 12 x 4 = 48 km² for those famous non-European style urban areas). Of course, it didn't stop there, the entire valley was settled and used for agriculture (see again the rural settlements extending along rivers on the linked picture).
These people still had to work their ass off ploughing all of those fields whether they had draft animals to help them or not. There is simply no silver bullet for this.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The Mesoamericans still created massive fields to feed their populations. Draft animals or not, they simply had to. We are more efficient at making food than at any previous point in human history and we still have to strip everything bare when we want to feed our cities.


This drawing of Copan is based on archaeological findings (and yeah, the white coloration is quite dubious) of just the urban core of the city.
A Mayan city, this urban sprawl of fields and houses covered some 12 km along the river, about 2 km on both sides of it (so very roughly 12 x 4 = 48 km² for those famous non-European style urban areas). Of course, it didn't stop there, the entire valley was settled and used for agriculture (see again the rural settlements extending along rivers on the linked picture).
These people still had to work their ass off ploughing all of those fields whether they had draft animals to help them or not. There is simply no silver bullet for this.

Yes and no. The Native Americans did not 'plough' fields, they planted crops individually, conserving the soil by not turning it over constantly and even enriching the soil where necessary with organics and charcoal (a technique recorded in areas as distant as the Amazon and New England/Virginia). Where they cleared fields, they did it by killing off the trees, allowing the debris to decompose in the field (another enrichment) and only over time producing the 'broad fields' typical of European plowing. This technique was described in both Iroquois country and Virginia by early Europeans, who, of course, thought it 'messy' and 'uncivilized' and never realized that it produced much more sustainable soils than the European Clear Everything method.
There has been considerable (recent) research done in North American Universities on the Native American Agriculture, and one rather intriguing conclusion is that, at least in the US northeast, the average yield in food per hectacre using the Native Multi-crop ('polycrop') system was up to 6 times greater than the European Monocrop wheat plowed field system (500 kg of wheat versus 2800+ kg of food from the Native system).
This also explains to some extent why the European observers thought that the Natives of the US northeast were 'inefficient' in that they did not plant large areas in crops and preserved large areas of forest (which, however, they had modified considerably using fire) - it simply never occurred the the colonial Europeans that the native agriculture was much more efficient than their own, and could produce far greater food yields and feed far more people per hectacre than the European system could.

Our 'modern' system of agriculture relies heavily on scientifically modified crops and use of irrigation, chemical defenses and enhancements and technology to achieve high yields, but on an input of resources versus output of food basis it is not that efficient nor inherently sustainable - maintaining production requires constant input of new resources, unlike the Native American agriculture developed in Mesoamerica and South America and modified/adapted to conditions all over the Americas.

Bottom line for the Game, though, is that almost any Native American Faction from South- Meso- or northeastern North America could legitimately be 'Agrarian' compared to contemporary European Factions simply based on the relative merits of their agriculture!

And note that Native American Agriculture had ultimately a Huge influence on the rest of the world. By tonnage volume, maize ('corn') is the most grown food/feed crop in the world and the potato had a massive effect on the caloric production and intake in Europe in the 17th - 19th centuries, being partially responsible for the population increases in northern Europe that in turn produced Great Power Status for Sweden (briefly) and Prussia (more lastingly).

 

[BuchiTaton]

These two notes are good to introduce to the level and kind of infrastructure Mayans built to sustain populations on the millions and cities with the density of contemporary Los Angeles, 1200 years ago.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2018/02/maya-laser-lidar-guatemala-pacunam/
https://earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/sensing-our-planet/mayan-mysteries

Like the first link noted, is interesting the similarities between the challenges and solutions that both Mayans and Khmers faced to built massive urban societies on their tropical regions, making sense that both are "Builders" on Humankind. Still both could have been agricultural cultures on game, and the mayan could have a water management unique quarter just like Khmer's Baray.

A game of Egyptians > Mayans > Khmers would give you the ultimate culture of water management monument builder people! I would love to try that

 

[need my speed]

water management

You mean the Dutch.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

The funny thing with the militarist affinity is it feels like a defensive pick more than an aggressive one because of the ability to rush out militia units which will be helpful if you've been caught with your trousers down and need some more soldiers NOW.

With that in mind the Soviets could be a good militarist candidate emphasising its progression in WW2 with defensive and production related bonuses.

 

[Krajzen]

The funny thing with the militarist affinity is it feels like a defensive pick more than an aggressive one because of the ability to rush out militia units which will be helpful if you've been caught with your trousers down and need some more soldiers NOW.

With that in mind the Soviets could be a good militarist candidate emphasising its progression in WW2 with defensive and production related bonuses.

Yeah, but do you have a 1914 - 2030 Expansionist candidate who is not controversial in one way or another, unlike America, Germany, Japan and Israel?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yeah, but do you have a 1914 - 2030 Expansionist candidate who is not controversial in one way or another, unlike America, Germany, Japan and Israel?

Canada is the second largest country in the world. And an expansionist wouldn't necessarily be military oriented in the Modern Era.

 

[ost]

And an expansionist wouldn't necessarily be military oriented in the Modern Era.

Good point! Nor does it even necessarily have to be associated with territorial acquisition! It would be nice to see the importance of "soft power" represented in the Industrial and Modern Eras. And, as you say, it would open up a lot of interesting expansionist candidates - like Canada, Switzerland, or China - with their "Belt and Road" initiative. So far we know that the legacy bonus of the aesthete Mauryans interacts with the Independent Peoples/Minor Cultures, but perhaps expansionist cultures will also have some bearing on Independent Peoples. Here's hoping Minor Cultures are sufficiently fleshed out, and not just there to be bribed or fought.

 

[Siptah]

Independent peoples brought unique units to EL. I don‘t know a way to adapt this to HK due to the different eras, but it would be quite nice if independent people would offer a unit or quarter.

also: Switzerland expansionist in the contemporary era? No, the expansion happened earlier. We do not know what the expansionist affinity does, but it was hinted that it helps controlling larger territories. So it might give a bonus to stability or unadministered cities.

 

[Krajzen]

Expansionist vibe, I think, is about

"Massive, dramatic expansion (relative to starting power) which actually results in a long period of complete, extraordinary control/integration of many alien peoples."

Such definition fits Assyria, Rome, Persia, Franks and Teutons. It also fits Spain, Ottomans, British, Russia, Qing, and few others. But it doesn't fit just any random big country in the modern era, just because it inherited a large (and mostly empty) territory from its colonial master. Nor does it really fit getting many diverse peoples from immigration. You need to go, take control and maintain it over many alien subjects, in whatever abstracted way (I didn't wrote TERRITORIAL expansion in the definition).

- Postcolonial very diverse countries got their large diverse populations by attracting immigration towards them, this in no way at all fits "expansionist" vibe, expansionist goes outside by definiton.
- Similarly, large postcolonial countries not only got their territory automatically transferred from previous master, but most of that territory when colonized was actually empty or barely inhabited and easily taken from small group of natives (yes I know I have just denigrated Native Americans but let's be honest, they never stood a chance).
- Neither is it "expansionism" when you expand your commercial ventures (China, European corporations etc) to other nations but there is no political and cultural power going with it.
- And the weirdest point, but I am convinced of it: it is not Expansionist if there is no expansionist narrative, or to use millenial term of those youngsters, vibe, or the Great Struggle. I use it toexplain why do I think EU doesn't fit this affinity (besides being political organisation, not a culture or a country).

The only countries which IMO fit Expansionist in the modern era are:
- Soviets. For their control of gigantic area with giant and diverse population, ambitions to spread its culture all over the world, controlling Eastern Europe via Warsaw Pact, and Cold War "expansion" via pacts, agents and coups.
- America. For their Manifest Destiny and expansion, colonization into the continent (portrayed as dramatic) and their imperial period before, during and after Cold War.

Wait, what, America? Huh, I changed my own opinion. Oh well. Although, to be honest, I don't expect to see Expansionist America, because HK Has the tendency to go for more "memetic" "mainstream" affinities of cultures - merchant Dutch, expansionist Rome, and so on. So I think they will go for Merchant America. Especially as Expansionist Modern America sounds controversial

 

[mitsho]

I disagree, in my mind, expansionist can also fit for "expanding into previously not densely populated areas", so Australia or Brazil or Pakistan founding new Capitals away from the coast which means a conscious effort to change the set-up of your country, to move populations to new areas and lighten the population density somewhere else.

It of course depends on what the actual gameplay bonus is of "expansionist" which can change anything. And I do agree that your definition fits best for a spontaneous reading of the term, but it's not the only one. All the other ones you list I say to myself "Yes, you can argue that this is expansionism" - where did you get the definition in quotes at the start of your post from actually?

And lastly, they can also completely leave out an expansionist culture from the modern era. If the gameplay bonus doesn't make sense, why have one? Could even be true for the Industrial era.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Expansionist vibe, I think, is about

"Massive, dramatic expansion (relative to starting power) which actually results in a long period of complete, extraordinary control/integration of many alien peoples."

Such definition fits Assyria, Rome, Persia, Franks and Teutons. It also fits Spain, Ottomans, British, Russia, Qing, and few others. But it doesn't fit just any random big country in the modern era, just because it inherited a large (and mostly empty) territory from its colonial master. Nor does it really fit getting many diverse peoples from immigration. You need to go, take control and maintain it over many alien subjects, in whatever abstracted way (I didn't wrote TERRITORIAL expansion in the definition).

- Postcolonial very diverse countries got their large diverse populations by attracting immigration towards them, this in no way at all fits "expansionist" vibe, expansionist goes outside by definiton.
- Similarly, large postcolonial countries not only got their territory automatically transferred from previous master, but most of that territory when colonized was actually empty or barely inhabited and easily taken from small group of natives (yes I know I have just denigrated Native Americans but let's be honest, they never stood a chance).
- Neither is it "expansionism" when you expand your commercial ventures (China, European corporations etc) to other nations but there is no political and cultural power going with it.
- And the weirdest point, but I am convinced of it: it is not Expansionist if there is no expansionist narrative, or to use millenial term of those youngsters, vibe, or the Great Struggle. I use it toexplain why do I think EU doesn't fit this affinity (besides being political organisation, not a culture or a country).

The only countries which IMO fit Expansionist in the modern era are:
- Soviets. For their control of gigantic area with giant and diverse population, ambitions to spread its culture all over the world, controlling Eastern Europe via Warsaw Pact, and Cold War "expansion" via pacts, agents and coups.
- America. For their Manifest Destiny and expansion, colonization into the continent (portrayed as dramatic) and their imperial period before, during and after Cold War.

Initially there were only 4 provinces when they became a separate dominion. They gained most of their land later when they were a confederation through their own prime ministers and parliament.

I think Canada does also fit the expansionist model as much as America would. I mean Canada even has the "manifest destiny" like ability in Civ 6.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Expansionist is vague, when I think about how this affinity could be interpreted its easy to step on the toes of Agrarian and Builder. Its going to be focused on helping you rule a vast amount of territory for sure but wherever it is focused on 'hard expansion' of assimilation and subjugation of other peoples and lands or also includes 'soft expansion' of bringing pre existing territory more under your control and the improval of infrastructure, centralisation and industrialisation I am not sure. If the latter is included it does open up more options for modern candidates to the affinity.

 

[Krajzen]

Anyway, my setup for this era is utterly ruined now, and I am certain so are many of yours But I am not complaining! Aestethe Japan is excellent.

EARLY MODERN Dutch Merchant, Edo Aestethe, Joseon Scientist, Kongo Aestethe, Ming Builder, Mughals Builder, Ottoman Expansionist, Polish Agrarian, Spanish Expansionist, Venetians Merchant

Now I have no idea who is going to be Militarist in this era, at all, and neither - who who is going to be Subsaharan. What would be your ideas? I think we'll have both of these questions solved by the same culture, however. Alternate idea would be militarist Ottomans, but come on, an ability to maintain empire of the size exceeding all reasonable expectations is as much as their flavour as is Roman flavour.

I think the most likely now is militarist Songhai, it is the biggest SA empire of this era anyway. And Angola, Ashanti, Dahomey and Benin are impossible now.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

With the reveal today that means Japan will probably show up in the Modern Era. Would they use the name Meiji, Imperial, or just Japanese to distinguish it from Edo Japanese?
I think because Japan will show up in multiple eras we may just get Koreans in this era and them not called Joseon.

 

[pineappledan]

I give good odds that we’re not going to have an African culture in early modern in the base game.

between the semi-confirmed ones (China, Korea, Poland), and the now confirmed confirmed ones (Dutch, Japan), there’s only 5 slots left. Between Spain, Portugal, Britain, the Ottomans, Russia/Muscovy, Sweden, the Gurkani/Mughals, and maybe an Amerindian civ, I wouldn’t be surprised if they get passed over like East Asia did in Classical.