Current Release Discussion: Legions

[stmartin]

We still have a bunch of stuff to do in this release. Specifically, they are:

1. Balance the promotions, we need your suggestion
2. Improve Hero AI, we need your suggestion
3. Possibly adding new promotions, we need your imagination

So let's see what our players have in stock

 

[Evalis]

Balance - (Elite Infrantry, Archer, Siege, Naval)

The hero promotions for the 'Elite' unit lines are a little overpowering past promotion #3
Given that each of these promotions allows an additional troop to also be added to the legion, it stands to reason that the bonuses could either be decreased or illiminated as the rank gets higher. What I mean is.. it's worth the promotion to rank 4 even with no upgrades simply because one more unit gets +30% to strength in the army.

My proposition to the changes to this line (non-cumulative):
Rank 1 Grants 15%, Rank 2 Grants 25%, Rank 3 grants 35%, Rank 4 grants 40%, Rank 5 grants a low tier but unique special ability of some sort to those units (available only to those rare S class generals).

The archery line promotions could also use some adjustment towards gaining more first strikes initially (to allow the archer type generals to act more offensively and place their experience gain on par with the other generals). So the hill/city bonuses could reach a max of 40% along with 2-3 additional first strikes (1,1,1/2,0), or eliminate the defensive bonuses and increase the first strike chances (2,2,1+1,1/2*2) 5-8

 

[Kenjister]

I agree that the Elite Archer Promotions are quite weak when used outside city defence, but how fun is defending all the time? Maybe they could be changed to a combination of strength and first strikes to make them more useful on the field.

Also, maybe Naval Legions sould be able to do a ranged bombard. I've never actually used one, but it seems like a navy is still quite weak since it can't do anything but transport troops. Some way to provide support for the guys near the rivers would be nice.

 

[admtanaka]

I think part of the problem is that there simply aren't enough legion commanders. Right now, some of the weakest promotions are the ones that target an enemy's core troop - the chance of engaging another legion's core troop is too low to make the promotion worth the experience.

Also, since the AI will (almost) assuredly not be utilizing heroes as effectively as a human player, is there a way to scale some free experience for the AI legions based on difficulty level? Maybe one free point per x amount of turns?

A suggestion for a new promotion:
Pincer - borrows 10% strength from friendly unit on a plot adjacent to target (25% if friendly unit also has Pincer promotion)

 

[Kenjister]

Well, I belive this discussion warrants a revival with the addition of all the new heroes.

First thing I noticed now is the increased effectiveness of the Assault, Tough, ect, promotions due to all those new weaker generals to use them on. Great Job with that! Makes the game much more fun.

My current issue is that although it is a great idea to limit the hero class upgrades based on the hero's specific level, it makes it extremely hard to achieve an S or A rank. The experience required gets extremely high, in my current Lu Bu game (196AD medium map) it's 205 already and my legion has just reached the A level (even though my troops are blitzing, and have leadership which should also double the xp gained right?). It isn't really bugging me that badly, but maybe after awhile the experience required could stop growing as fast? I could imagine it would take eons for Guan Yu to get to his S in melee since they only get 1 move per turn.

Either way I'm loving the new release! Especially since Lu Bu is now an awesome force to reckon with!

Oh, and finally, could it be possible to remove the XP cap when you upgrade? It makes sense in vanilla, where you're troops have to retrain with new weapons, but it really seems out of place here. It really gets frustrating with your super leveled legions.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

What does it mean when a hero is defeated and "severely injured"?

Also, the ringtone for a victorious hero who's "refreshed" after killing some other unit seems to be tied to the one that has your units die, gave me a scare many times.

 

[Kenjister]

I'd also like to know what the "severely injured" message means. I remember reading about a vitality counter at one point but in-game I can't seem to find any mention of it, nor a way to track it. Does the hero simply die if it is severely injured several times?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Actually, it might mean the hero's attributes are downgraded. When I conquered Zhang Yan he was just a level D hero all around, and I'm sure he's had more exp than that.

 

[xxhe]

I'd also like to know what the "severely injured" message means. I remember reading about a vitality counter at one point but in-game I can't seem to find any mention of it, nor a way to track it. Does the hero simply die if it is severely injured several times?

Yes, this number is hidden in game now, but can be find at the hero.xml file. Many heroes will die after injured 8-10 times. It's a comparatively large number so you don't need to care about it. But several heroes will die for only 3-4 injury, such as Sun Ce and Yan Liang.

 

[Kenjister]

Yes, this number is hidden in game now, but can be find at the hero.xml file. Many heroes will die after injured 8-10 times. It's a comparatively large number so you don't need to care about it. But several heroes will die for only 3-4 injury, such as Sun Ce and Yan Liang.

Thanks! Just another question though, did this injury system replace the small chance of dying in combat?

 

[Kenjister]

Well, I believe this thread deserves a bump, since I'm too lazy to create a balance thread at the moment and I really need to say something about the promotion balance

Quelling and Suppressing and far too powerful at the moment, not only because the 50% combat bonus is extremely good, but also due to the heroes that have it. With the new promotion rebalance, Xiahou Dun becomes a killer of all things moving. I think the combat bonus vs Non-Revival players should be toned down to around 30% with both promotions, and relegated to actual Revival heroes. Of course you might of already done that in the next version so I really don't know.

My other little issue is Smart. It appeares that it only grants promotions that your hero can get anyways. Sadly this makes it quite useless, as the AI almost never has higher level promotions than your hero, and even if it did, very rarely would it be one that you could steal. It might seem overpowered to let it steal any hero promotion, but since it's so rare, I don't think it would be game breaking. It would be really fun though (Zhao Yun stealing Assault from Wen Chou or Yan Liang in the 196 scenario... that would be awesome)

 

[stmartin]

The smart promotion can't steal promotions the hero would be unable to normally learn is a bug, and it's fixed. However, do you think the chance of 50% is too high?

We haven't done anything with Quelling and Suppressing so far. I agree with you that 15% strength bonus for each seems more reasonable. But if we limit the bonus only to Revival heroes, Xiahou Dun, and many of Wu heroes wouldn't be able to get the bonus, especially when they are controlled by AI.

 

[Kenjister]

Nice! You sure catch those bugs quickly!
As for the chance, I think 50% is about right. It's not very often that you encounter a hero with promotions that you would be able to learn, so I think it would work fine.

True, I suppose lowering the bonus would keep those heroes from dominating as much as they are in my game, and would still give them an advantage.

Since we're on the topic of promotions, it would be nice to see some of the more famous heroes start with more promotions. Some, such as Ma Chao, Zhang Fei and Guan Yu have so many promotions that you never get to use some of the unique ones. Those little promotions (Unstoppable, Fighting withdrawal, Heroic ect) are too specific to be a viable choice when bought with experience. However, they seem perfectly balanced as is, so perhaps it would be possible to give these to some heroes for free at start. It's these little perks that make heroes more than buffed up regular units, and makes the game really fun. *cough*Guan Yu*cough* Mr. God o' War ain't doing much in my game at the moment. Isn't he supposed to be charging around the map beheading any hapless generals oppsing him, along with their compatriots, brushing aside gate officers, stroking his beard and haunting those who manage to kill him? I think he deserves to start with Tough, or Assault... he has a great promotion lineup, but lacks uniqueness from the start.

 

[stmartin]

Let those heroes start with more promotions is easy. Just use WB to edit those heroes, save the map, and start a new scenario with that map. Giving those promotions for free at start sounds like interesting, we can try it out in the next release.