Current (SVN) development discussion thread

How is an Opera House-city handled with regards to excess happiness? (..And, well, in theory, a New World city with that Islamic wonder providing the same effect)
I think the Opera House effect doesn't change the actual happiness and unhappiness values that are used here, but overrides them, so such a city would not be overpowered. But I'll make sure it's actually the case, thanks for noting.

Leo, I want to know what would happen when I move the civ of England to New York or Sydney and settle the capital there at the very beginning. Would the immigration happen at the Medieval? Or it need some other techs to trigger?
No, currently immigration begins after the American spawn as a leftover from when it was their UP. It seemed as appropriate as any other date and they'd be the first civ that can be affected usually.
 
Yeah, I thought about that too. The best approach is to add an option to disable them if you want the speed increase.
 


Did another test run on latest SVN. This time, 3000BC Portugal OCC space.
Migrated to South Africa to largely not interfere.

-I wanted to confirm it, and I did.
Portugal and the Netherlands do play a balancing act with each other.
They will basically claim all the Trading Company areas and colonial spots
that the other one would've competed for in their absence.
As a result, the Dutch were the #1 superpower for most of this game.
Just a reminder in the future, should you ever decide to tweak either of them;
it will most definitely affect the other, for better or worse.

-The Russians basically did what the Ottomans did in my last game,
Collapsed on the winning turn in spectacular fashion after sprawling across Mongolia, Tibet, Iran, Mesopotamia, part of Arabia, Pakistan and northern India.
After the Dutch collapsed, it was the Russians and the Americans competing against one another;
very historical, and it was the cherry on top that Russia collapsed in the 80s.

-I do not know what triggers this behavior, but I've noticed a trend where
large civs start going on wanton rampages in regions where they do not have war maps, before the time they're about to collapse.
The French were one of the dominant superpowers mid-late game, and decided
to collapse themselves by going on a conquering spree in the Middle East, similarly to what I described the Russians doing.
It's actually a nice balancing factor to ensure the top civs eventually collapse and give newcomers a chance to shine.
It unfortunately, comes too late to be of any good use, but it's an interesting phenomenon.

-Mongols do seem nerfed now; both Mongolia and China seem weaker now though.
China's military is quite lethargic after their rebirth, which I think I can attribute to Hongwu.
While I think Mongolia maybe got nerfed a wee bit too much.
My suggestion is to perhaps increase Hongwu's tendency to build troops very slightly,
as well as to give Mongolia a small foreign core impact reduction of 5-10%, as opposed to the former 33% that used to push them over the edge.
Although I must comment that Mongolia now collapses around 1500-1600 now,
if this was the desired effect.

-America feels like its sitting in a sweet spot right now.
The balance feels very good and the AI understands its UP effect now.
They remained The United States of America for much of the game (I don't think they ever switched).
It was the #1 civilization on the scoreboard when I ended the game,
and it didn't seem as Cheney-ish as my previous game.

-Macao for whatever reason changed hands like alot throughout the entire game.
It was obviously swiped from the Chinese, in the hands of the Mongols, back to China, then captured by a succession of Thai, Prussian,
back to Thai again after the Prussian collapse, Mughal, Russian, then back to Thai again on the eve of the Russian collapse.
The odd thing about this sequence, is that usually, the ownership changed during a war between the subsequent powers, but they typically had a better avenue of attack elsewhere.
For some reason, the AI liked to go out of its way to capture this city, which was farther away from the nearer cities within its immediate striking range.
In the cases where they were taken from the Thai though, I think that's attributable to the jungle impeding entry.
 
Thanks for the feedback, that's extremely useful. Short replies for each point:

- is your general impression that Portugal/Netherlands are fine when they're both AI and the player doesn't interfere? Sometimes I think the Dutch tech speed is a bit too fast.
- regarding the Ottomans, I often have the impression that they're too strong late in their historical phase and weak early on, when the opposite would be more realistic. Is that right? In this case a unit production reduction and more starting units (at least for the AI) might be in order. Or Mehmed's AI is at fault, I don't know.
- I think the wanton rampage phenomenon is a result of the normal BtS AI where civs start to try to take over the world and win domination no matter the cost. As you say, that's not really a problem, because it tends to dispose of blobbing superpowers.
- I think the Mongol collapse happens at roughly the right time (if one views the civ as Mongol Empire + successor hordes it's also quite accurate). I'm more interested in if it now happens in every game or if they have a chance of stabilizing. Also, making Hongwu more militaristic is a good idea.
- Yep, I'm happy with America too right now, both from an AI and player perspective.
- No idea what's going on with Macao there.

Something else I wanted to note is that I've committed a stealth nerf for England a few revisions ago that slightly slowed down their tech speed (like 2%) and more importantly increased their number of cities upkeep so that they don't completely take off if they manage to get all of India quickly.

Looking at your screenshot it might also be a good idea to remove minor civs from the final score statistic.
 
- I think the wanton rampage phenomenon is a result of the normal BtS AI where civs start to try to take over the world and win domination no matter the cost. As you say, that's not really a problem, because it tends to dispose of blobbing superpowers.

I must say that I do believe it really is a problem. Although we do want to limit "blobbing", there has to be a better way than collapsing the entire civ. AI doesn't understand stability, and way too often a strong civ uses it's military to spread out too much, and ends up collapsing - but it is doing what it think it is supposed to, and is in reality being punished for being succesful. I find it to be especially bad in Europe, where a major war too often results in both civs collapsing - one civ from losing cities and core, and subsequently the other one too, from gaining civs in foreign core and the stability malus when taking cities, the anger/resistance-thing.

If we can't teach the AI to handle stability, I think the effects should be decreased a bit with regards to this - less penalties from conquering and holding foreign cities, or more ways to counteract those penalties. For one, I've always thought that the culture slider ought to be a way of handling "emergency" stability problems; if your citizens are unhappy and on the brink of starting a revolution - for whatever strange reasons - spending 30% of your national budget on horse races and gladiator matches and plays and movies really should at least make some of them less concerned with overthrowing you and your government. If all my citizens are happy, I don't understand why they'd want to revolt against me just because I sent some settlers to Siberia. I mean it's cold and all, and you risk getting jumped by bears or Putin, but it's for the good of the realm - surely, the people must understand that! Or because I sent some troops to take some Portuguese colonies in Brazil - I don't understand why that puts my empire under that much distress.

Edit: Another partly solution could maybe be to increase the stability gain - that was put in, right? - after losing a city to a secession. In order to balance it all out, slowly, and handicapping the civ who was overreaching, instead of it just being a station towards the inevitable collapse. I don't know... anything really, to help the AI not screwing itself up over and over again, it's just so painful to watch.
 
I'm not that fond of including quick solutions to instability problems because the whole mechanic is very longterm oriented. Plus, the AI would also need to be taught to use them. I agree that there's a problem with wars between European civs. Maybe the AI should be encouraged to use the Imperialism civic more to cope with this.

Anyway, I've just committed a new revision. There's now a new setting in CIV4GlobalDefinesAlt.xml. If set to 1 (standard value), only UHV goals for the player are checked and the rest skipped and AI civs start with their three goals failed. I've also rewritten various parts of the Victory module to make the code more elegant, probably slightly faster and also made sure that all wonder goals fail when another civ builds one of the required wonders.

I also took the opportunity to include the Empire State Building into the American UHV.
 
I'm not that fond of including quick solutions to instability problems because the whole mechanic is very longterm oriented. Plus, the AI would also need to be taught to use them. I agree that there's a problem with wars between European civs. Maybe the AI should be encouraged to use the Imperialism civic more to cope with this.

Anyway, I've just committed a new revision. There's now a new setting in CIV4GlobalDefinesAlt.xml. If set to 1 (standard value), only UHV goals for the player are checked and the rest skipped and AI civs start with their three goals failed. I've also rewritten various parts of the Victory module to make the code more elegant, probably slightly faster and also made sure that all wonder goals fail when another civ builds one of the required wonders.

I also took the opportunity to include the Empire State Building into the American UHV.

How about Hollywood and Graceland? I also think maybe Broadway should replace Graceland and the resource can turn to classical musical. It may be more... Er... famous...
 
I understand that logic, but wouldn't it make more sense that the current system - wouldn't it be more realistic? I mean, what did a king/president/emperor do historically, when they feared a revolution? Didn't they then try to calm down their citizens by providing entertainment and distraction? It seems more intuitive to me than saving your realm by telling your Uruguayan colony that from now on they're Incan :D

But I agree that it's not a perfect solution, obviously - I just think the current mechanics are too harsh on the AI. Winning a war should be a good thing - too often it's not, for the AI.
 
Thanks for the feedback, that's extremely useful. Short replies for each point:

- is your general impression that Portugal/Netherlands are fine when they're both AI and the player doesn't interfere? Sometimes I think the Dutch tech speed is a bit too fast.

The Dutch tech speed is more or less fine. I was able to catch up to them in time, even doing OCC and managing other priorities.
But yeah, they're both fine when both exist and are doing their thing at the same time; they kind of balance each other.
I don't think it's any coincidence that in both games, I took one out of the equation, and the other one jumped into being the dominant superpower for most of the game.

- regarding the Ottomans, I often have the impression that they're too strong late in their historical phase and weak early on, when the opposite would be more realistic. Is that right? In this case a unit production reduction and more starting units (at least for the AI) might be in order. Or Mehmed's AI is at fault, I don't know.

I sort of think the Ottomans are okay how they are right now.
Well, of course, what currently happens runs counter to history,
but I haven't seen any maluses associated with this round of events
that can be attributed to "slow start -> strong finish".
The only civilizations I think this seriously impacts though, for the player, is Prussia and Russia.
I never have issues dealing with the AI typically,
but playing Prussia and Russia, I always have to step carefully around the Ottomans,
which is not too much of an issue for the former but a bit bigger for the latter.

Something else I wanted to note is that I've committed a stealth nerf for England a few revisions ago that slightly slowed down their tech speed (like 2%) and more importantly increased their number of cities upkeep so that they don't completely take off if they manage to get all of India quickly.

They're still in the Top 5 on this scoreboard, and they were a dominant factor in my last game, before they blobbed and deflated so they feel roughly on par with any other Western Euro now.
At the endgame, Britain was in possession of England, Scotland, Ireland, Normandy (feet on the ground), Quebec, part of the Caribbean and eastern Australia + New Zealand.
I feel it's good that they are still a very capable and dangerous power, but they're not quite Victoria II status like how they were in some previous revisions.
(Which is just awful by the way; it's one of the worst designed Paradox games imo because it likes to flaunt its complete lack of balance.)

Looking at your screenshot it might also be a good idea to remove minor civs from the final score statistic.

Yep.
 
Lately, I often see (marathon, mind) the HRE remaining a dominant power up to and past the Prussian spawn. In my current Spanish game, it is shortly after the American spawn, and the HRE is high in tech, controls Italy, Greece, Germany, Venezuela, Turkey, and has just launched a war against Russia netting Kiev, Moscow and Novgorod. On top of this, Iran and Thailand are their vassals.

Now, to be fair, I am an aggressive Spain with Portugal, Inca and China as vassals that has settled almost all of the New World, from Argentina to Alaska. This notwithstanding, I have observed cases where the HRE is weak and succumbs to Prussia, often in instances where it does not have a tech lead, or only has its core cities. I likely worsened the situation by eliminating France quite early and giving the HRE an opportunity to absorb Italy, but it is still worrying.
 
How about Hollywood and Graceland? I also think maybe Broadway should replace Graceland and the resource can turn to classical musical. It may be more... Er... famous...
I agree that the Broadway might be a better wonder than Graceland. But I don't really want to include them into the UHV as well, because it's a bit much and the AI really likes to grab these wonders.

I understand that logic, but wouldn't it make more sense that the current system - wouldn't it be more realistic? I mean, what did a king/president/emperor do historically, when they feared a revolution? Didn't they then try to calm down their citizens by providing entertainment and distraction? It seems more intuitive to me than saving your realm by telling your Uruguayan colony that from now on they're Incan :D

But I agree that it's not a perfect solution, obviously - I just think the current mechanics are too harsh on the AI. Winning a war should be a good thing - too often it's not, for the AI.
Well first of all, there are times when gameplay trumps realism and I think the stability mechanic often runs into such situations. But I also don't think that rulers usually were very successful in turning the boat around when revolutions were imminent. Russia was reforming, but too slowly, and Louis XVI tried to make himself popular again with exactly the measures you allude to. Short term reactions (which is what cranking up the culture slider is) often didn't work. Long term planning did, which in the case of the player means that you're supposed to look out to not get into unstable situations in the first place, and the stability mechanic represents that pretty well already imo.

That said, of course the whole system is very counterintuitive and nonsensical at times. If I'd redo the whole game I'd make stability work in a vastly different way. Unfortunately I doubt they'll make me lead designer of Civ6 so these plans must remain in the drawer (literally).

Lately, I often see (marathon, mind) the HRE remaining a dominant power up to and past the Prussian spawn. In my current Spanish game, it is shortly after the American spawn, and the HRE is high in tech, controls Italy, Greece, Germany, Venezuela, Turkey, and has just launched a war against Russia netting Kiev, Moscow and Novgorod. On top of this, Iran and Thailand are their vassals.

Now, to be fair, I am an aggressive Spain with Portugal, Inca and China as vassals that has settled almost all of the New World, from Argentina to Alaska. This notwithstanding, I have observed cases where the HRE is weak and succumbs to Prussia, often in instances where it does not have a tech lead, or only has its core cities. I likely worsened the situation by eliminating France quite early and giving the HRE an opportunity to absorb Italy, but it is still worrying.
I think your interfering with the European balance of power had a lot to do with these outcomes. But I agree that HRE's performance depends on whether they can control and keep Italy. Which is appropriate.
 
Iranian, Polish, and Congolese Great Scientists are unable to build an academy. Colombo does not count towards Portugal's Asian/African/Brazilian colony total. I believe this is because Asia's lower limit for the purposes of that UHV is one tile too high.

I would also like to call your attention to Lagos, Nigeria, the largest city in sub-Saharan Africa. I believe it is in need of a Mumbai-like make-over. First off the Niger river terminates too far to the east. The river terminus itself should be moved one or two tiles to the west. Second, the city-name map for Portugal (and apparent resource placement) places Lago de Curamo just west of the current Niger delta, which is not accurate. The vacant plains two tiles west is where Lagos should be. The tile 1w of the current oil location should be Calabar if anything. Finally, the city-site for what should be Lagos has zero food resources in its fat cross. I certainly understand why it should be surrounded with jungle so it doesn't grow until the modern era, but it needs something akin to what Mumbai got.

So, my proposed solution would be to move the Niger river delta west (as seen in the SS) and move Portuguese, English, and whoever else's settler and stability maps to match the plains tile as Lagos. As far as resources go, I'm not sure. The economy was as dependent on slaves as it currently is on oil so there isn't good history for something like Bananas; but something to increase food production is necessary both to establish historical slave production in addition to modern city size. Maybe the cows could be moved west (not really sure what the cows are supposed to represent) and the crabs a tile east. Maybe screw the resources and put a flood plain at the Niger delta.
 

Attachments

  • 8800_screenshots_2013-05-07_00002.jpg
    8800_screenshots_2013-05-07_00002.jpg
    479 KB · Views: 114
I'm more interested in if it now happens in every game or if they have a chance of stabilizing.
a bit feedback about mongolian stability.
In my last 2 games in svn 462 and 465 (monarch/normal/600AD) mongols didn't collapse even in 1900s. They were unstable for a long time, but didn't collapse, just became weak.
And also in 2 games which I ended in 1800s, they also didn't collapse. One time they were even stable and controlled decent area (core cities flipping to them like Samarkand and even couple of cities in foreign core).
--
And I have a suggestion about this. Which would be much more historically accurate, if Leoreth care about this.
I suggest to make mongolian core area a bit less, it will guarantee their collapse ;D
Especially to the north-west from lake Baikal. That area was settled by cossaks-resettlers about 400 years ago. For example city Erkhuu (Irkutsk on russian), which mongols always build, actually was built by cossaks-resettlers, not conquered. In this case it is historically for Russia, and foreign for Mongolia. Even if there were some settlements, they were abandoned long ago.
But to the south-east there is let it be mongolian core area. There is Ulan-Ude Autonomous District now, Buriats living there, but it still russian lands, I wonder why it is not contested area at least.
edit; There is map of Russia, if someone didn't see it ;D
And on the map 2 areas near lake Baikal. Area to the NW - Irkutsk District historical for Russia, forign for Mongolia. To the SE Ulan-Ude autonomy - core for Mongolia, contested for Russia. Area to the south of lake Baikal in grey color, actually Mongolia.
800px-Russia_edcp_location_map.svg.png
 
Yeah, I always found it weird that the Mongols found Irkutsk. I'll see what I can do.
 
Yeah, I always found it weird that the Mongols found Irkutsk. I'll see what I can do.

I know you already took out those three Manchurian tiles from the Mongolian stability map
that I requested awhile back to not flip on their spawn but is it still roughly like this?:

civilizationmongol.png


If so, that's huge, and the Mongols don't even settle half of that normally.

Also, looking at the picture, I understand a little better why Macao was constantly targeted.
Why isn't the southern half of China a core region for China?
 
Whenever I try to use the SVN checkout, I get the following error:

Checkout from https://subversion.assembla.com/svn/Dawn_of_Civilization, revision HEAD, Fully recursive, Externals included
Can't make directory 'C:\Program Files (x86)\2K Games\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's
Civilization 4 Complete\Beyond the Sword\Dawn_of_Civilization': Access is
denied.

Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Win 8 is such a pain in the ass. You need to go in Properties and assign full control to everything.
 
How often did you try? You get the access denied message when I'm committing stuff at the same time.
 
Whenever I try to use the SVN checkout, I get the following error:

Checkout from https://subversion.assembla.com/svn/Dawn_of_Civilization, revision HEAD, Fully recursive, Externals included
Can't make directory 'C:\Program Files (x86)\2K Games\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's
Civilization 4 Complete\Beyond the Sword\Dawn_of_Civilization': Access is
denied.

Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Sometimes, administrator settings won't let you put it directly in the Program Files folder. Make the checkout elsewhere (like in My Documents) and paste it to Program Files from there.
 
Back
Top Bottom