Dare I say....

[Cheezy the Wiz]

by being there we can do alot more than just "talk" which is what most left-thinking people suggest. "Talking" has gotten us very far with N. Korea and Iran recently hasn't it?

thank God/Allah/Yaweh that somebody said it!

 

[Tulkas12]

Light, it doesn't matter what the US policy says. The only thing that matters is what it looks like the US is doing. Was Iraq an imminent threat? (Don't think like an American, think like an Iraqi.) The proper answer is no. So, why did the US invade Iraq? (Again, don't think like an American, think like an Iraqi.) Because the US is punishing Muslims for September 11th/because the US holds a grudge against Iraq for the Gulf War/because the US wants more oil. Not for some high-minded reason. And invading other countries or overstaying the welcome is not going to improve that view at all.

Ignorant Iraqis think this, granted they would be the majority atm. Whats the numbers like atm? 80% hate us in general was the last number I heard. Their government knows better, and as long as it holds, it will clear up the dust. Yea, the base issue would be tricky politically. I know how tough it is to hold bases in any country. We will pay for the land at least and sign some sort of umbrella deal.

Considering the situation over there the fact that 20% don't hate is astounding btw. That 20% must be very enlightened indeed, I doubt that I would be capable of such foresight if I was in their shoes, yet they do, I appluad them.

Btw my reasons for supporting action in the mid-east has to do with all of mankinds concerns and not just American's. It is the case that since the fall of the USSR the US can do no right and I think this goes WAY beyond reasonable objections to our actions.

 

[Cuivienen]

Ignorant Iraqis think this, granted they would be the majority atm. Whats the numbers like atm? 80% hate us in general was the last number I heard. Their government knows better, and as long as it holds, it will clear up the dust. Yea, the base issue would be tricky politically. I know how tough it is to hold bases in any country. We will pay for the land at least and sign some sort of umbrella deal.

Considering the situation over there the fact that 20% don't hate is astounding btw. That 20% must be very enlightened indeed, I doubt that I would be capable of such foresight if I was in their shoes, yet they do, I appluad them.

Btw my reasons for supporting action in the mid-east has to do with all of mankinds concerns and not just American's. It is the case that since the fall of the USSR the US can do no right and I think this goes WAY beyond reasonable objections to our actions.

Yet that 80% is an immense base for terrorism that didn't exist before the invasion. Clearly, we have not reduced terrorism by doing so.

Also, as I said before, at this point, it doesn't matter what the motivations for the war were. All that matter are the implications.

(BTW, your signature quote is incorrectly attributed. Churchill never said anything of the sort. See here, first entry.)

 

[Tulkas12]

Yet that 80% is an immense base for terrorism that didn't exist before the invasion. Clearly, we have not reduced terrorism by doing so.

Also, as I said before, at this point, it doesn't matter what the motivations for the war were. All that matter are the implications.

(BTW, your signature quote is incorrectly attributed. Churchill never said anything of the sort. See here, first entry.)

That 80% isn't creating terrorists. The Sunnis are responding for other reasons altogether than why these 80% are pissed. They are reacting to our invasion. It does matter long term, the implications only matter short term, hence my abusive reference to anyone that puts these "implications" above what truly motivates our actions. I agree we have brought terrorists to the heigth of their activity, we had no other option imo.


Fixed the sig. I had no idea, and had heard it before, just yesterday heard it again attirbuted to him. You have enlightened my none the less, something I will prolly never get to claim that I did to you. lol.

 

[bathsheba666]

You only think this because you have been mislead. Does the US conduct reprisal attacks as a matter of policy? No. If your answer is otherwise just don't respond to my posts as you hate the US far more than what is repairable.

We try to stop the cycles these people get themselves into, by being there we can do alot more than just "talk" which is what most left-thinking people suggest. "Talking" has gotten us very far with N. Korea and Iran recently hasn't it?

Erm, you only think I have been misled because you have been misled.

Are you saying that if the US invades a couple of countries "because of 9/11", we have to call them wars and therefore cannot call them one big group of reprisal attacks?

Do I hate the US? Is your world view easier to maintain if you think that anyone disagreeing with you is either misled or hates the US? Is this what passed for logic in your education?

A lot of 'these cycles these people get themselves into' are in fact cycles the US has got these people into by messing around with the countries in their usual ham fisted way. First the US sets up Saddam, then they get rid of him.
First they train Afghani islamic freedom fighters, now they vilify them.
Idiots, seems a reasonable description here. Why would they do this?

My quote about the Red Queen was Alice in Wonderland, not Marx, btw.
Believe as many impossible things as you wish, but reality will not change because of it.

Hate the US? I've been there many times and made good friends.
But then they were bright amusing people. I don't need your posts to know that many countries have other types of inhabitants.

 

[tomsnowman123]

We try to stop the cycles these people get themselves into, by being there we can do alot more than just "talk" which is what most left-thinking people suggest. "Talking" has gotten us very far with N. Korea and Iran recently hasn't it?

The thing is though, neither of these countries has attacked us.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

right, so we ought to wait until they leave Seoul or Tel Aviv in ruins before we act?

 

[tomsnowman123]

right, so we ought to wait until they leave Seoul or Tel Aviv in ruins before we act?

Continue to negotiate. Iraq hadn't attacked anybody, but we went in, and that was a mistake. Let's not make the same mistake twice.

 

[CaptainF]

Pardon me, but I think the OP's thinking is flawed.

We all thought that capturing Saddam would destroy all of this. Now we have destroyed what we have created! We are fighting beasts out of our own stupid will, and thus are fast becoming one.

 

[CaptainF]

Ignorant Iraqis think this, granted they would be the majority atm. Whats the numbers like atm? 80% hate us in general was the last number I heard. Their government knows better, and as long as it holds, it will clear up the dust. Yea, the base issue would be tricky politically. I know how tough it is to hold bases in any country. We will pay for the land at least and sign some sort of umbrella deal.

Considering the situation over there the fact that 20% don't hate is astounding btw. That 20% must be very enlightened indeed, I doubt that I would be capable of such foresight if I was in their shoes, yet they do, I appluad them.

Btw my reasons for supporting action in the mid-east has to do with all of mankinds concerns and not just American's. It is the case that since the fall of the USSR the US can do no right and I think this goes WAY beyond reasonable objections to our actions.

Enlightened? Good god, you aren't really that idealistic are you? Enlightened wouldn't be the proper adjective to describe that minority. More like "paid off", "pacified" or "castrated".

 

[Tulkas12]

Erm, you only think I have been misled because you have been misled.

Wow, we are really schooling each other aren't we. "You're brainwashed". .. "No, you're brainwashed".

Are you saying that if the US invades a couple of countries "because of 9/11", we have to call them wars and therefore cannot call them one big group of reprisal attacks?

Yea, basically. We did not respond to several attacks against us by the same people or orginizations. We did finally respond, or reprise if you so wish to veiw it, after the attacks were so devestating we had no choice. Iraq was obviously not a valid response to 9/11, but more of a tactical attack bent on bringing control to the overall area. We started at the weakest yet most anti-american state in the region. Afghanistan could be designated as a reprisal as the situation there I still believe is hopeless. We can only hope keep them there and to prevent them coming back to power.

Do I hate the US? Is your world view easier to maintain if you think that anyone disagreeing with you is either misled or hates the US? Is this what passed for logic in your education?

You started out by flaming my veiw. I said you were too bias to even have a discussion with about it. You respond by further insulting me? Is this what passed as debate in your education?

Answer: No obviously not, though I am quite sick of the anti-americanism that pervades western thought atm. We are not near as evil as people make us ou to be, especaiiily as western europe is now making us out to be. It has become apparent that if we do not elect leaders that share the same veiws as your socialistic leaders, that we are to be demonized and made out to be evil. Your insinuation that I'm nuts deserved no better response than what I gave.

A lot of 'these cycles these people get themselves into' are in fact cycles the US has got these people into by messing around with the countries in their usual ham fisted way. First the US sets up Saddam, then they get rid of him.
First they train Afghani islamic freedom fighters, now they vilify them.
Idiots, seems a reasonable description here. Why would they do this?

Yea, we were fighting a different fight at the time. . .hmmm I wonder what was going on in those areas at the time....hmmmm

I agree that it hurts our reputation though.

My quote about the Red Queen was Alice in Wonderland, not Marx, btw.
Believe as many impossible things as you wish, but reality will not change because of it.

I know, you were insinuating that I was crazy. Reality is loosely defined at best. What do you think of the Reagan administration? What does history think of it?

I'm not concerned with the silliness of the politics of this mess just the long term possiblities of inaction and action. It is clear that I am for action.

Hate the US? I've been there many times and made good friends.
But then they were bright amusing people. I don't need your posts to know that many countries have other types of inhabitants.

Nice. This is real sweet. If you don't feel like being civil, I again ask you not to bother to post in my threads.

 

[Tulkas12]

Pardon me, but I think the OP's thinking is flawed.

We all thought that capturing Saddam would destroy all of this. Now we have destroyed what we have created! We are fighting beasts out of our own stupid will, and thus are fast becoming one.

These beasts were out and about well before we invaded. 9/11 anyone?

We do have to deal with the Sunnis who are out to dismantle any good will we instill over there.

 

[Tulkas12]

Enlightened? Good god, you aren't really that idealistic are you? Enlightened wouldn't be the proper adjective to describe that minority. More like "paid off", "pacified" or "castrated".

This is cynical at best. Yes I am that idealistic, because yes apparently so are 20% of Iraqis. Your description of these peoples is pessimistic at best and probably hateful in nature. Believe it or not, the US wants peace around the world. You are in it, how many people do you know that want all out war all the time?

 

[Red Door]

These beasts were out and about well before we invaded. 9/11 anyone?

We do have to deal with the Sunnis who are out to dismantle any good will we instill over there.

What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

 

[CaptainF]

These beasts were out and about well before we invaded. 9/11 anyone?

We do have to deal with the Sunnis who are out to dismantle any good will we instill over there.

What good?

 

[Tulkas12]

What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

Not much.

Did you read what I was responding to? We supposedly created these beasts in Iraq. My response is that Al-queda was around well before Iraq, because our invasion drew them into an area that they weren't in before is irrelevant long term. They were in the area, our presence there is to counter them in the whole area not just Iraq. In the long term this will be very beneficial, problem is the west has zero willpower to face adversity these days. We will suffer even greater for this lack of willpower. We are half-assing it, the OP was hopeful that even so we might be making headway.

Iraq was a state supporter of terrorism btw, even if they weren't tied with Al-Queda.

 

[bathsheba666]

We can only hope

Yes, I think that about sums it up.

 

[Tulkas12]

What good?

If you have the idea that we have done no good at all whatsoever just stop reading this thread. I will not be able to answer you and you respect my answer. Respect seems to be a problem in these forums.

Long-term? We are solving a problem their children would have faced. We are providing the ground work for a nation that will be very wealthy and possibly a gem of the area. We are sparing humanity the very strong possiblity of a real jihad.

Short-term? Infrastructure. Schools. Sewers. Electrical power(though this has been sabotaged cinsistently). Clean water. So on and so forth. Definitely not enough to counter the damage we have done.

 

[CaptainF]

This is cynical at best. Yes I am that idealistic, because yes apparently so are 20% of Iraqis. Your description of these peoples is pessimistic at best and probably hateful in nature. Believe it or not, the US wants peace around the world. You are in it, how many people do you know that want all out war all the time?

Hateful? Nah, I don't hate them, I just recognize that they certainly wouldn't love us if someone they know/love is in need of a few skin grafts, or a skull graft, if that be the case.

I'm also not idealistic enough to believe that something so bureaucratic as the US government would go out of its way and blow a couple billion dollars on some giant nuptial agreement between two countries to wed them into the holy church of democracy...without any strings attached. Mind you, this country we are talking about, the lucky trophy wife (Iraq in this allegory) didn't even have to bring the whole Al-Qaeda dowry to the table! We just went all the way and got married!

Some honeymoon we are having eh? I wonder if the divorce will get any uglier?

 

[Tulkas12]

Yes, I think that about sums it up.

Cynicism, when serious, is the ugliest of all Human traits. The road it paves certainly leads to despair.

Do not hack to peices my posts. I will not do so to yours. Cut and pasting ones points avoids the context. It is very ugly to do this, I gess you didn't know that it was rude.