Darius, Hemispheres, Imm, Out of practice

[Takesitez]

Hi guys, I've played Civ IV for awhile, but its been a year or two since I last played.
I was curious to know what people would think would be the best course of action from this point on (920ad). I'm pretty confident I can beat the map from here(although somewhere out there there's an Ai that has a helluvalot of land), but since I'm rusty as hell, curiosity got the better of me so I made this post.

The map had a niceish start without being totally decadent (unirrigated corn + gold + copper in BFC)

1. Beaker rate is 402 b/T, was first to music, libbed MT 820 AD (since I only know a few civs, felt imprudent to go deeper), 10 cities, land a bit food poor overall, but workable. Only wonder so far is NE in Tarsus, but it looks like I may get the Taj as well.

2. I feel like I can probably whoop Mongolia here, but I'm unsure if I should just got for it here, or tech through to Cavs first. What would you do ?

3. All general advice very welcome. The upcoming techtrade seems interesting as well. I kinda want all that fat cash the chinese have, and could definately use engineering, but unsure if it's worth to trade em my monopolies for here, since I can selftech engineering in 4 for 280 gold +-.



Screens :

Spoiler :

 

[Rusten]

Almost all of Kublai's cities are on flatland and you have a big tech advantage -- no need to wait for cavalry. Mounted warfare should suffice. Same with China. If you run out of steam you can take cease fire and finish the job with cavs.

You're in such a good position that you can do almost anything. All that matters is that you commit to something instead of following multiple paths.

 

[Major Tom]

Re tech-trading, they may well have the caravels going soon. Then your monopoly techs are not so monopol anymore. Would take chinas cash and optics and enginering from Kublai.

Just my two cents.

 

[georgjorge]

I agree with what Rusten said - your position looks very strong. Cuirassiers are more than enough for two AIs, maybe the whole continent. You can go against Grenadiers against them, they're good up to Rifling.

Spread Education and Music to the world! Get the gold and Engineering (4 turns less research is Cavalry/Galleons 4 turns sooner) - dead AIs can't give them to you anymore, and that's what they are soon going to be. The techs you give them don't give them a military advantage anyway which is all you care about for now.

I wouldn't build the Taj if you're going to whip a lot for war (and you probably should). Such a nice wonder but being right before MT makes it lose a lot of value...

Oh, and when trading techs DON'T miss the opportunity to bribe one of them against the other. Don't hesitate to give your next target - Mongolia - a number of monopoly techs in order to decimate his stack, he won't get an opportunity to trade them anyway and you will speed up your conquest greatly if done correctly. Now would be the perfect time. No diplo knowledge from me but they are all in different religions so might work.

 

[lymond]

If you can get Engi for Music and Philo, I'd take that in a heart beat. Otherwise, just trade Music for the cash, or Philo. Look to get Guilds for Edu from KK. After Lib, depending on what you want to do, this monopolies you have don't mean that much.

You can also look to bribe AIs into war with each other..just send the whole world into massive chaos. China on KK now or when you DOW would be helpful.

Yeah, you should rock out with Curs

and screw stables, start whipping out Curs like crazy now

 

[pigswill]

Its a bt of a dilemma: now is a good time to whip cuirs and stomp the Mongols and Chinese but its also a good time to cash in on Taj which means you want to be working more tiles to get more benefit.

Stuff like music and philo is trade bait at this point.

Maybe slow build cuirs while heading towards cavalry and whip after Taj GA is over. Cuir>cav upgrade isn't that expensive.

Certainly worth picking up optics if you can to find out what the rest of the world is doing.

 

[Izuul]

I haven't gotten to look too closely yet, but you can get 11gpt from JC by renegotiating resource trades.

 

[Takesitez]

It's amazing after ll this time that this forum still gives such fast and good info. Thanks all of you.

I read a couple of replies, did the techtrading, but then opted slowbuilding Cuirs trying to maximize Taj benefit (then came back here to see Pigswill proposing exactly that, pretty awesome), and managed to tech into cavs during the war (started with 20 cuirs) whilst whipping thanks to the 600g from the chinese.

Kahn!!!!! actually fought back a little bit, but nothing major. Had to retake Beshbalik and traded quite some cuirs with elephants.

Current proposed followup is (not sure if I will be fast enough for everything):

_ Try to take peace with Mongolia for Constitution and Economics, use the 10 turns to whipe the chinese of the map before they steal MY great people from Physics/Comm. (dude is willing to capitulate currently, but does NOT want a peace treaty for techs... WTH)
_ Whipe Mongolia off the map
_ Load up on galleons and try and whipe Jules with cav + airships.
_ Hope I get a GE in Tharsus to build the kremlin; and whip my economy into gamewinning state.

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

Eh..play it how you will, but I would argue against pigs logic..as good a gent as he is...but it really depends on what you want to do.

There's a fairly solid axiom with the game of Civ IV ..the more stuff you have earlier the better things will be later. You had a prime opportunity to unleash Cur hell on the Far East. Their treasures would have been yours far sooner than any Taj wonder ..which you probably would have had regardless.

Taj ain't that big a deal to delay the joys of plundering the AI

You were destined in this game to destroy them one way or another ..the question is 'what if I took their stuff more soonerer"

 

[Fippy]

I looked at your first save, and would like to give some detailed opinions cos there are quiet a few details standing out

* Cap was not working gold, hopefully that's just a mistake

* Wheat gives more health than sheep (trade with Kublai), besides other trades already mentioned. Music and Philo monopoly are indeed unimportant, and giving Edu for Guilds also works cos you like if Kublai builds Unis instead of units. Not giving gunpower is good thou, agg. Muskies are quiet annoying for Cuirs.
Another advantage of giving him Edu, is distracting his tech path from military stuff.

* If you collected gold for some turns and 535 did not come from a recent trade or so, that was too much without teching. Seeing that you can now get much gold from Qin, adjusting the slider mid-game is not something i like doing. Always maximum science (unless unsure and waiting for trades).

* Persepolis should build christian monastery and temple, great Bur. cap so i would not use it for units. 10% science + Apo hammers are great.

* Tarsus as NE city has almost all buildings but not running specialists, something does not add up here


Whipping Persepolis would be bad, and i would also not have whipped Tarsus before a golden age with NE. But let's look at Susa, sea tiles and mines are not good enuf to keep it's a city for whipping and being around size 4.

Gordium is unhealthy and working mines, whipping gives many more hammers and those mines are horrible food / production ratio.
Bactra, has only 1 good tile (sheep) and 1 okay (horse), best such a city can do is whipping while possible and helping with your starting army.

It's not so much about doing Taj or Cuirs, but about getting the best out of your cities. There's no need for whipping special ones if you have 10, just using those with lots of average (or even bad) tiles would give you enuf Cuirs to attack.
Sea tiles, normal farms or mines are not getting much better during golden ages, and will not outperform whipping them away

 

[georgjorge]

I have to agree with lymond. The way this game works (army upkeep, cultural pressure), once you go to war it's usually best to continue warring until you have won. Making more troops early before they go obsolete (Curs) - getting cities earlier - making even more troops even earlier - win. In those games, I often don't get to tech anything beyond Rifling - no Constitution, Scientific Method etc. - but it's not needed.

Of course, your way can also work well and maybe is even more fun, but it's not as efficient.

Taj is such a nice wonder, but I rarely build it because it comes just before MT, which means it comes at a time when I don't have big cities because they have all been whipped down for Curs. And it's definitely not worth delaying a good attack.

Your plan sounds good, if you have enough troops I wouldn't even bother for peace with Mongolia and just kill them off while also attacking China. China definitely needs to go now not because they are stealing GP but because they are closest to Rifling. Then Julius and then an overseas AI that has no Rifles yet (preferably with a nearby AI with open borders so you can attack from their neighbour's land).

 

[Takesitez]

First of all; let me say thanks again for the sweet advice.

The Taj GA + slowbuild cuirs + deficit research straight into cavs + upgrade whilst already invading and whipping with 20 cuirs worked out very well since it allowed me to seemlessly transition into rifling before my cites stopped working tiles.

The argument to whip like a madman from a couple of turns before the first save being better may very well be correct, but since I already had invested all those hammer into the Taj I would have to go quite a few turns to redo the warprep and see how my position would be in that case.
Maybe I'll do that at a later point, I think it's probably fairly close.

I looked at your first save, and would like to give some detailed opinions cos there are quiet a few details standing out

* Cap was not working gold, hopefully that's just a mistake

* Wheat gives more health than sheep (trade with Kublai), besides other trades already mentioned. Music and Philo monopoly are indeed unimportant, and giving Edu for Guilds also works cos you like if Kublai builds Unis instead of units. Not giving gunpower is good thou, agg. Muskies are quiet annoying for Cuirs.
Another advantage of giving him Edu, is distracting his tech path from military stuff.

* If you collected gold for some turns and 535 did not come from a recent trade or so, that was too much without teching. Seeing that you can now get much gold from Qin, adjusting the slider mid-game is not something i like doing. Always maximum science (unless unsure and waiting for trades).

* Persepolis should build christian monastery and temple, great Bur. cap so i would not use it for units. 10% science + Apo hammers are great.

* Tarsus as NE city has almost all buildings but not running specialists, something does not add up here


Whipping Persepolis would be bad, and i would also not have whipped Tarsus before a golden age with NE. But let's look at Susa, sea tiles and mines are not good enuf to keep it's a city for whipping and being around size 4.

Gordium is unhealthy and working mines, whipping gives many more hammers and those mines are horrible food / production ratio.
Bactra, has only 1 good tile (sheep) and 1 okay (horse), best such a city can do is whipping while possible and helping with your starting army.

It's not so much about doing Taj or Cuirs, but about getting the best out of your cities. There's no need for whipping special ones if you have 10, just using those with lots of average (or even bad) tiles would give you enuf Cuirs to attack.
Sea tiles, normal farms or mines are not getting much better during golden ages, and will not outperform whipping them away

Replying point by point:

_ Yes, I was microing to grow another tile earlier and forgot to put the mine back on

_ Lazy recource trading a good marker for how rusty I am, likewise the EDU trade which is just a+ advice.

_ I kept the slider off for a few turns partially because I was making up my mind about wether to power through to Cavs or spending the money + techs for a warbribe to distract Kublah. Turns out I got greedy and didn't get punished for it.

_ Yeah since AP religion failed to spread very well early on I decided not to invest hammers into missionaries at this stage since I felt my hammers would be more useful for fast cuirs right now, but I'm sure that in the cap not building those structures just makes no sense from a ROI standpoint. Good point. (looks like I saw that error myself during the war and corrected it now that i check my second save again)

_ Tarsus already did its work during the Music GA spawning 2 Scientists for edu, It has decent production and good food so in this particular phase it should surely be producing units? All I'm whipping away are coastal tiles and currently not being in philo/GA running specialists feels inefficient in comparison. I kept 1 engineer running the entire time from the first save though, to power out the kremlin after the cav war. I 'm hoping to score the spy + scientist from post scimeth to launch a MoM golden age later, where tarsus can again spawn special people by starving down for a 4th GA/ other uses. It looked fine in my head anyway....

_ Did not intend on whipping Persepolis, but I did anticipate on whipping Gordium quite ferociously, I was counting on whipping cuirs into the heroic epic after T1 of the war in fact . Bactra as well will be whipped down in the following turns, but in your opinion the tiles it works for the upcoming golden age aren't worth it ? That's interesting, I never did the math on that, I just assumed that 4 yield tiles becoming 5/6 yield tiles during GA would be worth working.