Dark Ages

[Theodorick]

I see there are Golden Ages in the game, but why not Dark Ages? I know it might just piss some players off if their civilization is going well and then suddenly a message pops up saying, 'A huge plague has hit your civilization, removing 1 pop from all cities and starting a 100 year dark age,' but it would be a neat addition. It seems a bit unusual that it never happens. It's as if the world is totally peaceful--except for the crazy people on it--with no disasters, diseases, or droughts that can cause a dark age.

Of course the AI can also have dark ages, and maybe these dark ages can be contagious? So for instance an entire continent can plunge into an age of disease, lost production and commerce, and lost food. This would end up causing wars, forming hard alliances, and adding a new and interesting layer of strategy to the game. I would love to--and I am not being sick--to see Catherine, Bismarck, and me plunging into a 100 year dark age and having to totally change how I play the game during this period. This would test the player's flexibility more than anything.

A modern 'dark age' could be the equal of the great depression. Does anyone here agree this would be a neat addition to the game?

 

[RoninWarrior]

that is a totally, completely, unforgivably, inexorably, ridiculously........... good idea!

 

[Lord Chambers]

Not if it amounts to a message popping up that says 'a huge plague has hit your civilization, removing 1 pop from all cities and starting a 100 year dark age.'

 

[Lord_Iggy]

This was the original idea civ 3 and 4 designers had, but they feared that some people would get angry, so they made golden ages instead.

 

[Theodorick]

Not if it amounts to a message popping up that says 'a huge plague has hit your civilization, removing 1 pop from all cities and starting a 100 year dark age.'

I also said there would be a nation-wide loss in production, commerce, and food. Not something huge, but enough to nearly cripple you for a while unless you resort to drastic measures--maybe slavery, kissing butt with a stable civilization, if there's one left, or even bring your entire nation to a halt and going to war for the pillage money and spoils of war.

 

[flytyer]

I like the idea! I have had my own dark ages before in a game...I just didn'e need the computer to tell me though. HAHA! Maybe that's because they were of my own making and not from some unforseen event.

 

[Theodorick]

I like the idea! I have had my own dark ages before in a game...I just didn'e need the computer to tell me though. HAHA! Maybe that's because they were of my own making and not from some unforseen event.

Oh you mean the dark ages that comes from too rapid an expansion or growth, poor nation management, or a very bad war? Yeah, that happens to everyone now and then.

 

[RoninWarrior]

yeah, i like it. it adds a big human dimension to the game that make your people seems like actual people that you are responsible for the wellbeing of.

i really wish natural disasters were a part of the game too, i mean if anyone wants to say that nature doesnt play a big enough a part in real life to merit it being a big part in the game... well, just dont say that in new orleans

 

[Theodorick]

Nature has had a massive impact on human history, as much as culture or religion. Disasters, drought, areas with constant rain or floods, blizzards, and intense weather has always been a huge influence in what people do. Here's a few examples.

- Just look at the ancient civilizations that thrived in what is now the sahara desert. They thrived there in about the year 5000 BC, were the first to invent mummification, and had a rather sophisicated society based under worshipping livestock. But then there was a massive drought there and this forced these people to move to the nile to survive, thus giving birth to ancient Egypt.

- How about the drought that hit mesopotamia in about the year 2500BC? That caused a huge dark age for the civilizations there and allowed Egypt and the greek world to play 'catch up.'

- In peru there was a massive drought there over a thousand years ago, and this destroyed an entire civilization to a collection of war and starvation.

- The great depression. I don't need to explain this!

 

[calyth]

Then if, in a MP game, someone noticed that another person's in a dark age, cripple in many ways, they'll just drum up the war machine and crush the guy in the dark ages.
The best you can probably do is to cripple food, production, or commerce exclusively. If you cripple food or production, you end up having a nation that's just asking to be ran over. If you cripple production and commerce, then you might have a nation with an out-of-control population, but you can't really make it do anything (well you could go back to slavery).
I know I don't like losing to random things.

 

[Theodorick]

Then if, in a MP game, someone noticed that another person's in a dark age, cripple in many ways, they'll just drum up the war machine and crush the guy in the dark ages.
The best you can probably do is to cripple food, production, or commerce exclusively. If you cripple food or production, you end up having a nation that's just asking to be ran over. If you cripple production and commerce, then you might have a nation with an out-of-control population, but you can't really make it do anything (well you could go back to slavery).
I know I don't like losing to random things.

Then simply don't place this in multiplayer games, and also allow the option to turn dark ages off in custom games.

 

[Shadzy19]

Intresting idea , would be hard to balance it out though , a dark age in the early game will hurt your game a whole lot more then in the industrial age for instance.

 

[Theodorick]

This is why the AI should also have them. Nobody can be immune to dark ages, so every AI will have a dark age. Also just so a classical dark age isn't more devestating than an industial one, the dark ages can be evend out and balanced right. And also I said dark ages SHOULD be contagious, so this would add in even more balance.

Remember the plague in civ3 conquests? That was contagious and acted like a mini dark age. It worked, though it was only in the scenarios...

 

[nyonix]

I think its a good ideia, but the trigger shouldnt be random, it would depend on some choices u make throughout the game.

 

[Aku Armoton]

This should be implemented in the expansion.

Excellent idea. =)

 

[calyth]

Remember the plague in civ3 conquests? That was contagious and acted like a mini dark age. It worked, though it was only in the scenarios...

Heck I wasn't even playing with high difficulty or anything, but I had a plague that refused to go away because there was a tile in the city's immediate surroundings that had a jungle, and I end up building an army of workers to clean out all the wetlands in Civ 3.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea per se, but I'll most definitely turn the plague off in any game that I'd play.

 

[Daimon]

Actually the Civ designers thought up Dark Ages as a way of showing how empires wane over time, however they thought it wasn't fun so they swapped the idea around and made Golden Ages (Read the afterword in the Civ 4 manual).

It would be a good idea if it was implemented correctly so that it wasn't unfair, for example you could different types of Dark Ages such as Technological Dark Ages which slow down your research or Cultural Dark Ages which slow down your cultural growth.

And Speaking of different Dark Ages I think that Civ 4 should also have differnt Golden Ages, like the ones staded above but with the opposite effects.

Just an idea...

 

[spankey]

I think the issue has always been about gaming vs realism. For example, you are in a great race with another civ to complete a victory condition (ie space) and your actions has brought your civ to the cusp of victory. Two turns before squeezing out a victory you have some random event that kills your production (or whatever) and you lose the game. The fickle finger of fate has "got" you again.
If it is random with no player causation or prevention, then it just looks arbitrary and people with reload the save or restart the game.
On the realism side, I do think it would be interesting to see.

Another way that you could simulate it would be to spawn hordes of barbarians to attack and invade a selected civ (ala fall of rome mod from civ 3 (or something named similiar to it)

 

[Theodorick]

I think the issue has always been about gaming vs realism. For example, you are in a great race with another civ to complete a victory condition (ie space) and your actions has brought your civ to the cusp of victory. Two turns before squeezing out a victory you have some random event that kills your production (or whatever) and you lose the game. The fickle finger of fate has "got" you again.
If it is random with no player causation or prevention, then it just looks arbitrary and people with reload the save or restart the game.
On the realism side, I do think it would be interesting to see.

Another way that you could simulate it would be to spawn hordes of barbarians to attack and invade a selected civ (ala fall of rome mod from civ 3 (or something named similiar to it)

Yes actually not that I think about it wuld be a pain at times. But I am sure there is a possible way to defend against it, and maybe they could impliment ways to prevent dark ages? For instance if all your cities are in good health and happy the chance of a dark age happening is 0%. But if hald of your cities are BOTH unhappy and unhealth the possibility can go to 50%--though that may be a bit high, so how about just 5% then? If this is done than you and the AI will be both working to prevent a dark age from ever happening balancing things out.

The random effects would be WHEN it would happen as your nation is slowly falling into ruins.

 

[ruff_hi]

I like this idea. Further, if you pop a Great Scientist in a Dark Age, the unit is deleted (ie the mob kills him). If you pop a Great Priest, you get another one automatically.