Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Leoreth]

This thread is outdated. You can find up to date information about the mod in THIS THREAD.

Old thread OP preserved for posterity:

Spoiler :

Dawn of Civilization
A modmod for Rhye's and Fall of Civilization

You're here at the thread dedicated to the Dawn of Civ modmod, which you probably already guessed from the big letters above
I've recently reworked the first post here to provide more information about the ambition of the mod, my plans for its future, known bugs and other problems and a list of aspects I especially like to hear criticism of. Of course you will still find the download link to the latest released version here.

What's this modmod about?
As I suppose you all do if you've found your way here, I consider RFC to be the best mod ever made for BtS. It made just the right amount of changes to the original game to improve on both historicity and replayability. Dawn of Civ tries to expand this philosophy on aspects of the game Rhye left unchanged, such as Religions and Civics, to make them fit in even better into the original mod. Additionally, I try to insert small and medium changes to improve on balance or historicity in the few occasions where that's still necessary, which led to minor changes to the map or civilizations. And in the end, I'd also like to provide a little novelty and unknown challenge to all the players who already know the original mod inside out. The inclusion of Phoenicia, Netherland's new spawn, tweaked UPs and UHVs and in the future, also additional civilizations tries to achieve that.

What's this modmod NOT about?
Although I'm very eclectic in my design philosophy, which means I have no qualms in adding a good feature somewhere else (the foundation of this modmod was even laid down by the ideas of others), this modmod is not a kitchen sink modmod. I always carefully consider if a change adds something to the game and doesn't destroy other aspects of it. This is why I won't add anything just for the sake of adding it; it has to fit with the overall ambition and philosophy of RFC.
Also, although I try to improve historicity wherever possible, this is not a "historically accurate" modmod. There are occasions where gameplay and historicity can go hand in hand, and RFC in general is a great example of this, but there are other situation where the opposite's the case. So I won't enforce historicity whenever I find it would hurt the challenge, replayability or overall gameplay of the modmod.

All fine and good, but how do I install this?
Easy. Download the RAR file from the link below, and extract it into your Beyond the Sword\Mods\ folder. You don't need to have RFC installed beforehand, nor do you have to load RFC before you can load Dawn of Civ.

Always loading the modmod is rather tedious. Isn't there a faster way to launch it?
There is. You can also start the modmod by executing the 3000 BC or 600 AD scenario files in RFC Dawn of Civilization\PublicMaps\, you can even make a shortcut to them wherever you like. You'll get to the civ selection screen for a new game, but can easily reach the main menu by clicking "back".

I've found an error, or something happens that doesn't look like it's supposed to. What to do?
Congratulations, you've just been abused as a beta tester
This modmod can only improve when you report me all problems you encounter, because I can't possibly detect them all myself. Simply post in the dedicated "Bug reports and technical issues" thread and describe your problem - a screenshot or if appropriate, savegame further increases my chances in figuring out what's wrong. I'll try to fix it as soon as possible.

There are just two requests of mine:
1. Please look if the error you've found has already been reported. I can't maintain a list of already reported bugs because it is eating too much of my time, but at least check the last one/two pages of the bug reports thread. Of course you can still supply additional information if the previous reporter lacked a savegame / Python exception.
2. Please make sure you've had Python exceptions enabled before posting here. They're set invisible on default, to activate them open _Civ4Config in your Beyond the Sword folder, search for "HidePythonExceptions" and change it to the following:

HidePythonExceptions = 0

This will pop up an error message in most cases, which will help me to determine which line of code caused the problem (if you post a screenshot of it of course).

I have an idea to improve this modmod. Can I post it here?
Of course! You're more than welcome to contribute your own ideas and observations here. As already said, I'll gladly add a good idea when I see one.

There's only the above caveat on things this modmod doesn't try to be. Also, please don't worry if one of your proposals is given a positive response by me and then doesn't turn up in the next version - maybe I was focused on other aspects, maybe it was more difficult to do than I thought, or maybe it even turned out it wasn't that good for the modmod in the end. In the same vein, please don't think I've ignored you if I didn't reply to your suggestion. Several suggestions are repeated rather often and it's time consuming to elaborate every time why I've decided to not include it. I read all suggestions made, and my lack of reply doesn't mean anything for the quality of the suggestion.

I'll try to be always active and talkative in this thread here to directly keep you on track of these things, though.

I like this modmod and would like to contribute. What can I do?
Simple: play it, and report what happens. Your experiences are extremely valuable to me, because I can't possibly play all situations through myself. Of course it'd be good if you paid extra attention to the aspects I've changed (victories, powers, mechanics etc.) and report about the resulting effects on AI behaviour, difficulty and historicity.

Once in a while I might open a thread here and ask for more specific input on the aspect of the game I'm currently working on.

Is there a way I can play with the most recent additions/fixes without waiting for the next release?
There is, and it's called SVN. SVN or Subversion is a software that provides an online repository for data which can be connected to a folder in one's Explorer. From then on, I can commit recent changes to this repository and you can update your version of it (you can't commit without password, though ).
The DoC repository is available HERE. The easiest way to access it under Windows is to download and install Tortoise SVN. After that, you can right-click on your Beyond the Sword\Mods\ folder and the new option "SVN Checkout" will appear. This will open a prompt where you enter DoC's SVN URL ("https://subversion.assembla.com/svn/Dawn_of_Civilization/"). This will create a new folder "Dawn_of_Civilization" in your Mods folder. You will have to rename it to "RFC Dawn of Civilization" for the modmod to work. Afterwards, you only have to right-click on that folder and select "SVN Update" to get my most recent updates.

If you intend to use this feature, please mind that I don't guarantee stability, bug-freeness or balance of the not officially released versions. You should also note that the downloadable version usually loads faster during the game, because its art is packed more efficiently.

MOST RECENT VERSION: 1.12

The mod is available HERE:
Download RFC Dawn of Civilization

A complete list of features (as of version 1.12) can be found in the attached text file due to post length limits.

Blue Marble terrain graphics for DoC

There's now an easy way to play it with the terrain graphic changes of Blue Marble. Simply download this RAR file and unpack it into your Dawn of Civilization\Assets\ folder. It's a little different from the usual Blue Marble terrain because I decided to keep RFC's typical hill texture.

This works now for SVN users as well. As long as you're on a recent revision (240 onward), there will be no differences in Blue Marble compatibility. Simply follow the instructions above.

Varietas Delectat and Ethnic City Styles for DoC

I've compiled a version of the Varietas Delectat (civ specific unit art) and Ethnic City Styles (civ specific city art) for this mod, covering all civilizations are present in v1.10. There are several changes to the art types associated with the civilizations to make it more appropriate within the context of this mod, and it includes an algorithm to assign appropriate city styles to independent cities based on their location.

The download link, a more detailed description, installation instructions and general discussion can be found in the dedicated thread HERE.

Caution: the VD module is only updated with every major version release and is very likely to become incompatible with subsequent SVN changes. Use is therefore only recommended for the packaged release.

Soundtrack Module

I've created a soundtrack module, containing additional songs for the religion dynamic soundtracks. Islam/Zoroastrianism receive many new songs, mainly from the Sword of Islam mod, and a new playlist for Buddhist and Hindu civs has been added.

Installation: unpack the Assets folder into your main mod folder, integrate it into the one already there and overwrite everything. The download is available HERE.

HUD Color Module

This module simply changes the HUD color of the mod to dark gray.

Installation: download the archive and unpack it into your main mod folder. The download is available HERE.

Note on the "expansion packs": all of these additional packages are compatible with each other, no matter in which order they are installed.

Further development

Plans for future features:
Features in italics not part of the official release yet, but available via SVN.

Spoiler :

v1.13 features:

• Redesign of the unit roster (especially classical, medieval and renaissance eras, also naval units)
• Revisiting the late game (Industrial and Modern) tech tree
• Better trade mechanics, including tourism
• Rewrite the spawn mechanism
• Offer later spawns of unused slots in later scenarios, e.g. Italy
• Redo of tribal villages
• Offer more to do in the modern era, including production sinks
• Expand the space victory into multiple projects
• Add a humanitarian victory

 

[Omega124]

Nice mod idea, but I haven't actually DL'd it. However, reading the changes you did, I have three minor suggestions to make.

1. I think that Vikings should just spawn in Copenhagen once and for all, with a settler appearing the next turn on Oslo. Copenhagen was the most important Viking city, and the vikings were predominantly Danish, while the Swedish Vikings were a break off. During the Renaissance, when they switch to Sweden, mod something so that they are very likely to move their capitol to Oslo.

2. Confucism was a MUCH more important religion than Taoism. Confucism influenced Chinese government until the ROC/PRC age, and was pretty much the way of life. Taoism never achieved that much. For a new UB, just have a "Taoist Pagoda", with the graphics from Civ to represent it.

3. I'm glad you want a more medieval Europe. But you skipped something as important as China! The Wang Kong LH for China was made because we didn't have something for that time period. Why not use the Taizong LH from the Chinese version of Civ 4? Unique graphics, unique animations, unique personality, there's no reason not to add it.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Very nice...will try it out.
Only thing is that you left out Taoism (or Confucianism if you please Omega--I'm done arguing) as prerequisite for the Great Wall. The only religions that don't have a wonder associated with them are Zoroastrianism and Taoism, and after all, it was China's repulsion of the various Central Asian nomads that led to the Huns and Goths moving west, so if you want to be historically correct, something Eastern (preferably a religion or Silk) should be required of the Great Wall.

# The Chinese UHV technically requires them to build two Taoist and Zoroastrian shrines now.

--Why don't you make Corossol's change (Confucian Academy)?
# The Dutch UHV needs more time for its exploration condition (or a replacement).
--How about RFCE's "settle x great merchants by year y"?
# The Phoenician UHV is easy to win as they start next to two dye.
--how about dynamic resources like Corossol?

 

[Leoreth]

1. I think that Vikings should just spawn in Copenhagen once and for all, with a settler appearing the next turn on Oslo. Copenhagen was the most important Viking city, and the vikings were predominantly Danish, while the Swedish Vikings were a break off. During the Renaissance, when they switch to Sweden, mod something so that they are very likely to move their capitol to Oslo.

I was thinking about moving them to Copenhagen. However, I fear that they
a) will then expand into Germany and lose all its cities when Germany spawns.
b) will prevent Germany from founding Hamburg/Kiel, which I consider a nice side effect of the late Dutch spawn
c) will not expand into Scandinavia properly
d) all of the above
I also chose Oslo in hopes they would ferry a settler over to Denmark, but hey, it's the Viking AI we're talking about here.

2. Confucism was a MUCH more important religion than Taoism. Confucism influenced Chinese government until the ROC/PRC age, and was pretty much the way of life. Taoism never achieved that much. For a new UB, just have a "Taoist Pagoda", with the graphics from Civ to represent it.

You can team up with The Turk and carry over the debate from RFCC
Seriously: some quick considerations that made me decide this way:
1. Confucianism is the more "philosophical" or "worldly" of those two religions.
2. Confucianism is easier to represent via a building then Taoism (I have difficulties to view a taoist pagoda as anything but a religious building, so what should it replace?)
3. The taoist symbol looks better
4. I was already copying things from RFCC, so I went with that, too

3. I'm glad you want a more medieval Europe. But you skipped something as important as China! The Wang Kong LH for China was made because we didn't have something for that time period. Why not use the Taizong LH from the Chinese version of Civ 4? Unique graphics, unique animations, unique personality, there's no reason not to add it.

Medieval Europe really got shafted by Firaxis, I'm already thinking about changing the tech requirements for knights to extend the medieval era. For the LH: The optimal choice would be to have representative leaders for the Qin, Ming and Qing dynasties and communist China. Since Taizong is a Tang, I see no point in adding him as himself, rather than an emperor representing the Qing in industrial era. The leaderhead is very good, still, and if I can't find a better solution I'll add him.

Only thing is that you left out Taoism (or Confucianism if you please Omega--I'm done arguing) as prerequisite for the Great Wall. The only religions that don't have a wonder associated with them are Zoroastrianism and Taoism, and after all, it was China's repulsion of the various Central Asian nomads that led to the Huns and Goths moving west, so if you want to be historically correct, something Eastern (preferably a religion or Silk) should be required of the Great Wall.

Maybe I was too much in love with the tactic of building it as Rome or Persia
You have almost persuaded me in giving it a Eastern requirement - but if I do it, it means China gets it (growing even stronger against the Mongols) or Japan or Khmer get it (so that it's wasted). Still not sure.

# The Chinese UHV technically requires them to build two Taoist and Zoroastrian shrines now.
--Why don't you make Corossol's change (Confucian Academy)?

# The Phoenician UHV is easy to win as they start next to two dye.
--how about dynamic resources like Corossol?

That's what I intend to do, I just didn't have the time to look into the UHVs. For Phoenicia, I think, I'll change the requirement to 4 dyes and place them at Sur, Kyrene, Sicily and Morocco. So the player is forced to expand further west and most likely has to fight Rome.

# The Dutch UHV needs more time for its exploration condition (or a replacement).
--How about RFCE's "settle x great merchants by year y"?

Great idea! That's propably more interesting than the Mali-esque "have X gold by Y" I had in mind. Depending on the choice of X and Y, the Dutch can turn from a very easy civ to more of a challenge. Which is only fitting, since the Dutch didn't have it easy in history and made very much out of it.

Thanks for your feedback and suggestions so far!

PS: I'd like to ask you to especially about the effects, balance, AI behavior related to my new civics. They are propably the biggest gameplay change and I'd like every option to be worthwhile and still balanced.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

1. Confucianism is the more "philosophical" or "worldly" of those two religions.
2. Confucianism is easier to represent via a building then Taoism (I have difficulties to view a taoist pagoda as anything but a religious building, so what should it replace?)

Can't put it any better...exactly what I was try to get the Turk to understand.

I think I'm going to try a French game first...the Dutch are really hard currently.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Still getting Byzantine Notre Dame...Corossol's solution is actually quite good (requiring aesthetics to build it).

 

[El Bogus]

Wow. That sounds great!
I saw the screenshots and saw a 2-pop-Amsterdam at Dutch Spawn in 1500. I'd make Dutch Cities bigger (maybe size 3 or even 4 depending on how much free buildings you will give the Dutch) and would add a forge, harbor and that stuff.
Please don't delete the Mayas on 3000 BC start. =)
Maybe you could delete the Weichsel and therefore implement the Oder for Berlin (I know it's the Spree actually) for Berlin is the city with the most bridges in Europe.
I agree to Pacifist's suggestion of the GW only buildable with Taoism. It's still possible that some western civ is able to build it since Taoism is the only asian religion that spreads. AND you could implement something like the Limes/Hadrian's Wall for Rome instead of unknown Theodosian Wall.

 

[Corossol]

Nice work Leoreth! I'm glad some of my work inspired you. Downloading now.

 

[Baldyr]

This sounds awesome! I'll definitely download the final version.

 

[Leoreth]

Still getting Byzantine Notre Dame...Corossol's solution is actually quite good (requiring aesthetics to build it).

That sounds good. I wasn't even aware that he did that.

I think I'm going to try a French game first...the Dutch are really hard currently.

Nice! It'd be good to see how their UU&UB play out.

Wow. That sounds great!
I saw the screenshots and saw a 2-pop-Amsterdam at Dutch Spawn in 1500. I'd make Dutch Cities bigger (maybe size 3 or even 4 depending on how much free buildings you will give the Dutch) and would add a forge, harbor and that stuff.
Please don't delete the Mayas on 3000 BC start. =)
Maybe you could delete the Weichsel and therefore implement the Oder for Berlin (I know it's the Spree actually) for Berlin is the city with the most bridges in Europe.
I agree to Pacifist's suggestion of the GW only buildable with Taoism. It's still possible that some western civ is able to build it since Taoism is the only asian religion that spreads. AND you could implement something like the Limes/Hadrian's Wall for Rome instead of unknown Theodosian Wall.

Yep, the Dutch are very underpowered at the moment. They'll get more population and buildings at the start, maybe an additional settler and better units (muskets + cannons). I'll see to that next.
If I want to add playable Byzantines, another civ has to go. The best choice for this are the Mayas, as their impact on the actual game is quite low.
It doesn't feel right to delete the Weichsel, but something has to be done about Berlin, it's underwhelming at the moment. I'm currently considering to make Germany spawn at Vienna, going with my "Germany is not Prussia" theme.
The Theodosian Walls are the walls of Constantinople, so not really a Great Wall analogon. They made sure that the city was able to endure several sieges, and I consider making it decrease bombarding damage until Gunpowder.

Nice work Leoreth! I'm glad some of my work inspired you. Downloading now.

This sounds awesome! I'll definitely download the final version.

I'm glad to hear that. But if there'll ever be a final version?

 

[AdrienIer]

The mod looks good, I'm downloading it right now.
About the Phoenicians, you just have to move the dyes around the Mediterranean to force them westwards (although it dosn't work too well in Corossol's RFCC, I suppose it can be done).
About the civic change, there are now some strange potential combinations : a capitalist society with a State-property economy, or an absolutist republic. Also, Mali is going to be terrible now with no environmentalism to help their health.
I'll test France right away, the new UU is such a relief : Musketeers are SO useless.

 

[Leoreth]

About the civic change, there are now some strange potential combinations : a capitalist society with a State-property economy, or an absolutist republic. Also, Mali is going to be terrible now with no environmentalism to help their health.

To explain the logic behind some "weird" combinations: the society civic represents, which social group has most of the power within its society: nobles (Aristocracy), workers (Socialism), the state (Totalitarianism) or the rich (Capitalism). I considered to name them Proletariat and Burgeoisie, even.
Now state property simply means that the econommy isn't free, but controlled and planned. Although communist countries are the most prominent states to run State Property, the civic itself doesn't inherently mean it's used to achieve socialist aims. In fact, many fascist countries ran a system that resembled State Property, while they weren't socialist.

Absolutism simply means that the executive part of the government isn't dependent on the power of others, nor limited by laws. A republic is a state that derives its statehood from the sovereignty of its people - which doesn't necessary mean a democratic system.

 

[Jusos2108]

Most of this sounds very promising and I am looking forward to this being completed.

But there one thing that sounds really strange:

3. Socialism (Communism): unlimited Engineers, +100% culture, +100% great people birth, +25% number of cities maintenance

Engineers fit perfectly and so does the maintenance, but GP birth rate could rather be -100% (same goes with culture). Perhaps it could be changed into something like free engineer in every city and that factories and forges produce +20% hammers.

 

[Leoreth]

I feared that this would stir up controversy

First of all: I'm neither a communist nor a socialist. I even oppose those ideologies, as in my opinion they lead to oppression and poverty on the long run in the real, complex world.

Unlike our real world, a game has to be balanced. So I tried to balance the SE oriented communist civics with the CE oriented market oriented civics (whether that was successful is another topic). So Socialism had to have a bonus for an SE economy.

It's still not entirely unjustified, though. Socialism doesn't automatically mean dictatorship or state property (although it lead to that in history). I simply means that a privileged class does no longer exist in your society. With equal chances, real talents (GP) have higher chances to have success.

PS: I know that topic is currently quite hot in the American public, so please let daily politics stay out of this thread. (Just a preemptive note).

 

[El Bogus]

It doesn't feel right to delete the Weichsel, but something has to be done about Berlin, it's underwhelming at the moment. I'm currently considering to make Germany spawn at Vienna, going with my "Germany is not Prussia" theme.

Okay, that would be a soulution but then change the coal ressource on another tile, because I hate to settle on ressources!

The Theodosian Walls are the walls of Constantinople, so not really a Great Wall analogon. They made sure that the city was able to endure several sieges, and I consider making it decrease bombarding damage until Gunpowder.

I know the TW since playing RFCE... but still a possibility of a Limes or Hadrian's Wall would be great. And I think it's historically more important than the Theodosian Walls, don't you think?

 

[Omega124]

I was thinking about moving them to Copenhagen. However, I fear that they
a) will then expand into Germany and lose all its cities when Germany spawns.
b) will prevent Germany from founding Hamburg/Kiel, which I consider a nice side effect of the late Dutch spawn
c) will not expand into Scandinavia properly
d) all of the above
I also chose Oslo in hopes they would ferry a settler over to Denmark, but hey, it's the Viking AI we're talking about here.

Settler Maps. Don't have any cities in Germany, and high priorities for cities like Oslo and Stockholm.

You can team up with The Turk and carry over the debate from RFCC
Seriously: some quick considerations that made me decide this way:
1. Confucianism is the more "philosophical" or "worldly" of those two religions.
2. Confucianism is easier to represent via a building then Taoism (I have difficulties to view a taoist pagoda as anything but a religious building, so what should it replace?)
3. The taoist symbol looks better
4. I was already copying things from RFCC, so I went with that, too

1. Confucianism was much more widespread, and it wouldn't be a stretch to say it was the "State Religion". If you wanted a job in Government, you needed to at least know about what he taught, and it was basically the way of life in China for over a 1000 years. Taoism wasn't nearly as important. Widespread? Sure, but it wasn't nearly as powerful as Confucianism
2. It could replace a Monument, which were usually religious buildings. It could have the bonus of never expiring.
3. So?
4. Valid point.

Medieval Europe really got shafted by Firaxis, I'm already thinking about changing the tech requirements for knights to extend the medieval era. For the LH: The optimal choice would be to have representative leaders for the Qin, Ming and Qing dynasties and communist China. Since Taizong is a Tang, I see no point in adding him as himself, rather than an emperor representing the Qing in industrial era. The leaderhead is very good, still, and if I can't find a better solution I'll add him.

Well, 600 was still Medieval, you know. Early Medieval, but still Medieval. Industrial makes no sense, he lived from 599-649. Whether you agree with the opinion or not, he still is /widely regarded/ as the best Chinese Emperor, and you can't deny that.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay, that would be a soulution but then change the coal ressource on another tile, because I hate to settle on ressources!

I know the TW since playing RFCE... but still a possibility of a Limes or Hadrian's Wall would be great. And I think it's historically more important than the Theodosian Walls, don't you think?

I'll think about that. Although RFC taught me to settle on some ressources, sometimes

Well, I think you'd have an argument with me here. Hadrian's Wall and especially the Limes were never able to hinder large invasion armies and mainly served to prohibit small border raids (and both of them couldn't contribute anything in protecting Rome from the barbarian invasion). The Theodosian Walls, then, were never overcome by force and saved Constantinople from many sieges.
That, and I don't want to have a Great Wall copy running around. Wonders should be unique.

Settler Maps. Don't have any cities in Germany, and high priorities for cities like Oslo and Stockholm.

Settler maps are not the solution to everything. Copenhagen already has 700 in standard RFC (the highest value), but have you ever seen them settling here? The AI simply has a problem with ferrying settlers, and if I have to decide between Vikings being stuck in Denmark or in Scandinavia, I choose the latter.

1. Confucianism was much more widespread, and it wouldn't be a stretch to say it was the "State Religion". If you wanted a job in Government, you needed to at least know about what he taught, and it was basically the way of life in China for over a 1000 years. Taoism wasn't nearly as important. Widespread? Sure, but it wasn't nearly as powerful as Confucianism
2. It could replace a Monument, which were usually religious buildings. It could have the bonus of never expiring.
3. So?
4. Valid point.

1. I know. "State Religion" only if it really was a religion. You nail it, "way of life" describes it very well. Also be aware that most Chinese people didn't make a difference between Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism, but rather followed aspects of all religions. Consider "Taoism" as a placeholder for this amalgamated "Chinese religion", if you want.
2. But an unique university is so much cooler, you have to admit that

Well, 600 was still Medieval, you know. Early Medieval, but still Medieval. Industrial makes no sense, he lived from 599-649. Whether you agree with the opinion or not, he still is /widely regarded/ as the best Chinese Emperor, and you can't deny that.

I didn't intend to use Tang Taizong as an Industrial leaderhead, just to use his slot for a Qing emperor. I still consider the Qing dynasty to be more important than the Tang (although my knowledge is only limited here). But since there seems to be no Qing emperor (besides Cixi, who doesn't deserve to be in this game for various reasons), I think he'll make it into the game

 

[El Bogus]

Well, I think you'd have an argument with me here. Hadrian's Wall and especially the Limes were never able to hinder large invasion armies and mainly served to prohibit small border raids (and both of them couldn't contribute anything in protecting Rome from the barbarian invasion). The Theodosian Walls, then, were never overcome by force and saved Constantinople from many sieges.

Yeah, I read this in wikipedia while translating for RFCE. Pretty amazing.

That, and I don't want to have a Great Wall copy running around. Wonders should be unique.

Okay, your point and at last your mod!

 

[scu98rkr]

It doesn't feel right to delete the Weichsel, but something has to be done about Berlin, it's underwhelming at the moment. I'm currently considering to make Germany spawn at Vienna, going with my "Germany is not Prussia" theme.

Would it some how be possible to get a weaker France/Germany to spawn at the same time in a Personal Union ?

Say with the french starting in Paris and the German starting nearby in Aachen. Hopefully the French would spread west + south and the germans east.

This would represent the Frankish Empire ? I think 2 countries in union would show the character of the frankish empire better as it was often split amongst sons.

At a scripted event the two countries would separate and possibly go to war ? Which might help kick off the many wars Europe experienced during the middle ages rather than turning it into a Christian happy happy land which so often happens.

Would also help show the wars of the early German emperors in spreading Christianity east.

Oh yeah obviously if Berlin is founded the capital moves there automatically.

Also it would possibly force the germans to fund cities in Holland which would revolt the question is how to stop the russians piling into eastern Europe too quickly.

 

[Leoreth]

Modelling a historically accurate Germany is a difficult task, and I've only seen one game succeeding in it (Europa Universalis). Although I'd also love to see the Franks ingame (and other neglected civs like the Caliphate of Cordoba), I fear it will be impossible to make that happen.

The major reason for this is the tight timeline: the Carolingian Empire is too shortlived on game turns to be worth this attention. I also don't want to force a player to be vassalized to the AI (aside from the fact that this isn't even possible in the game).

However, I also thought about adding events for major historical events. For example, all catholic players could get an event that spawns them an army near the Levant and starts a war with Arabia around 1100AD. Or the English player could get the option to lay a claim on France's crown in 1300AD, starting the 100 years war.