Deception: am I missing something?

[TravellingHat]

Hi FfHers

Am I mistaken, or does the deception tech only grant access to the Trojan horse and the Council of Esus?

Playing the svartalfar the other day, I made a point of nabbing deception first, as I'd planned to put the Council in my main production city and churn out a stream of "bandits" with which to plague my neighbours (all the fun of waging war, with none of the drawbacks of being held accountable. Who said being a backstabbing, two-faced traitor couldn't be fun?). I built the Trojan horse as well, mostly to prevent anyone else getting it.

Now, since I'd bagged both of deception's goodies, and it doesn't lead to anything else, I was quite surprised when my neighbours firstly demanded it for nothing (which I should not have refused, thinking about it), but then came back offering good techs and cash for it. Why? Surely the AI knows what wonders have already been built, so by this point isn't the tech useless?

Maybe this is just a little AI strangeness (i.e. it just perceives the opportunity to beg or buy x beaker's worth of tech).

 

[Sureshot]

ya, i like to combine Deception and Poisons into one tech when i edit things, since they seem similar in intent but then its a decent tech instead of two weak techs (1 single unit dead end tech and 2 1 shot world units/buildings only dead end tech)

my only guess as to why theyre the way they are is that shadow will somehow make use of both deception and honor to fill them out and make the new religions spread off them.

 

[TravellingHat]

my only guess as to why theyre the way they are is that shadow will somehow make use of ... them.

I think that's quite likely, and not long now until we get to find out. I'm hoping they get something that really makes the knife-in-the-back style shine. It's been fun causing havoc with my "renegades" (including hidden nartionality Kithra Kyrael, Kael Coalbane and the Baron). I managed to wipe out the ljosalfar while having them pleased with me throughout (and unwitting providing all my workers). The poor saps quite literally didn't know what hit them!

Aren't you the chap who did the svartalfar modmod? I guess you're quite a fan of the skulking little fiends yourself then.

 

[Sureshot]

yep, can't wait for shadow

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm fine with the techs the way they are, but do think that something need to be done about how the AI values techs. Techs AI weighting should decrease significantly once a wonder or hero that the tech allows has been built, or if some one else has already founded the religion that the tech would found.

Techs should also be weighted by alignment: I'm getting pretty tired of good civs rushing for Malevolent Designs.


Additionally, I would like more possible paths through the tech tree, probably meaning more or requirements (like Trade from either Horseback Riding or sailing). Deception seems like a good possible prereq for Malevolent Designs (an alternative to fanaticism probably), doesn't it? It would also be nice if religion specific techs provided shortcuts to some late game tech that are particularly relevant to the respective religions. (What I would really like is if certain techs/religions/alignments/specific civs could allow the research time for certain techs to be longer or slower, but that is probably too hard to program. I guess events could be used to that effect, but that doesn't seem like a particularly elegant solution)

@TravellingHat Sureshot made the Svaltafar mod, but isn't a "chap;" She is one of the few females in the Civ Fanatics Forum.

 

[TravellingHat]

My apologies, Sureshot

 

[xienwolf]

To add to Magister's idea about multiple paths (or) to various techs, it would be nice if you had the ability as Khazad to bypass some of the purely magic oriented research to get access to the more functional later abilities which they actually can make use of (like Omniscience without having to develop Mages/Wizards)

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Spoiler :

To add to Magister's idea about multiple paths (or) to various techs, it would be nice if you had the ability as Khazad to bypass some of the purely magic oriented research to get access to the more functional later abilities which they actually can make use of (like Omniscience without having to develop Mages/Wizards)

I agree. They could perhaps require religous techs, seeing as they are strong worshippers of Kilmorph(usually).

 

[Nikis-Knight]

To add to Magister's idea about multiple paths (or) to various techs, it would be nice if you had the ability as Khazad to bypass some of the purely magic oriented research to get access to the more functional later abilities which they actually can make use of (like Omniscience without having to develop Mages/Wizards)

The most egregious example is Celerity for the Luchuirp, who cannot use anything from the bowyers tech, nor any new units from Celerity, nor are they likely to have many units to promote to blitz, but they do have one unique building on this expensive tech.
I don't build it much...

 

[TSteamer]

It's been fun causing havoc with my "renegades" (including hidden nartionality Kithra Kyrael, Kael Coalbane and the Baron).

TavellingHat, when you had the Baron with HN, did you find him still spawning Ravenous Werewolves? I am playing vers .23c with the Baron having HN and he hasnt spawned any Werewolves at all

-Steamer

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In vanilla FfH, HN units cannot capture any unit. Werewolves used a unit capture mechanic to spawn more werewolves before (I think they now use a different spawn unit mechanic, like Giant spiders or Ars Moriendi)

Werewolves aren't spawned as often in BtS, but they are still spawned when HN. Unfortunately, the ravenous werewolves they spawn are not HN units. Also note that the Enraged promotion they start with has a chance of turning them into barbarian units. (I've noticed them sometimes be pushed out of rival territory strait into my cities just as they turn barb, thus taking my cities without a fight. I haven't actually noticed this after the last couple patches though.) Also, they can be captured by rival units with Subdue animal, as can the Baron himself (I was quite surprised when a ranger of a friendly civ one time entered by boarders, with open boarders, and captured my HN Baron before I'd even spawned any werewolves. The first several ravenous werewolves were under his control, but I eventually took the Baron back using a Druid)


I haven't tried the latest patch, which made it impossible to capture workers while HN. I suppose it is possible that the Baron can no longer spawn werewolves, like in earlier versions.

 

[Kael]

Yeah, it would have turned on the baron when HN too.

 

[Calavente]

more OR tech paths... hmmm... feels good

 

[TravellingHat]

Sorry for the delay getting back - been on hols.

Yes, the Baron was spawning werewolves, but not that often. I actually think this is an improvement, as in a previous version I had the Baron and took out all my neighbours with an ever-expanding army of werewolves. He should be powerful, but not *that* powerful!

Didn't realise that werewolves could be captured, though. That has some interesting possibilities.