Deity attempt, Egypt

RedKirrHelper

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
22
I am still struggling to beat Deity by conquest. This time I decided to chose Hatty (as a strong Spi/Cre leader) and took the first map which was without gold/stone in the capital. I was quite happy with 3 food resourses. But still failed the first attempt, and even another two. Just wondering whether this map is easy or not for Deity.

Spoiler :

There is no much place to expand and there is very few production and a lot of food. I tried the Great Lighthouse. Evetything was good, I was happy with my speed of research. However...diplomacy was terrible. AIs liked each other and also teched and traded. So, rifles/cuirassiers was useless againt the neighbors. And I just didn't have enough land to go Communism -> Assembly Line -> Industrialization.

May be one want to try Elephant+Catapult rush. But I thought that I can win Lib and that would be enough to win the game...


 

Attachments

  • AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
    AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
    83.5 KB · Views: 67
  • Egypt_Deity.jpg
    Egypt_Deity.jpg
    153.4 KB · Views: 216
Spoiler :

There is no much place to expand and there is very few production and a lot of food. I tried the Great Lighthouse. Evetything was good, I was happy with my speed of research. However...diplomacy was terrible. AIs liked each other and also teched and traded. So, rifles/cuirassiers was useless againt the neighbors. And I just didn't have enough land to go Communism -> Assembly Line -> Industrialization.


Did you pre-build WEs and upgrade them into cuirassiers? That saves a lot of time. By the time you reach Lib you should already have a huge stack of WEs ready (HAs if no ivory). Making them after Liberalism is too slow. Especially on pangea with a small amount of cities.
 
I had my first win on Deity on the game that Yyeah posted under Deity Ramesses II. I recommend you try that one, RII is a helluva leader ☺ Sea starts suck, especially if u start without fishing. I would regenerate until land start.
 
Guys, thanks a lot for comments! At least, it looks like the difficulty is above average. Last time I have quite a lot of starts with a bad shoreline and near the sea. I also thought to try Ramesses, but not from that map, I want try him as wonder-builder similar to OCC. Actually, my most successful attempts was by Cathy of Russians. Even she is not the best leader att all (and also I try to avoid Incas)...

Rusten, I tried diffirent appoaches. So, sometimes I prebuild Horse archers or War elephants. However, in this case I usually can win Lib only a couple of turns ahead, which means that I take Nationalism/Chemistry and usually fail with Cuirassiers/Cannon rush. Another bad thing for me is the following: if I build too many Cuirassiers then I just fail to tech to Rifles. Anyway, I will pay more attention for prebuilding army and preparing merchants.
 
I've played turns into this map, it's definitely on the harder side of Pangaea :(

Spoiler :
Seeing the small strip of land we're blocked on,
I think the alternative at the start is to either :
- aggress Joao, steal workers, try to choke and cripple him as much as possible... This seems dangerous at best, suicidal at worst. Start lacks the commerce to make Archery a super appealing tech and there are so little tiles that the possibility is real there aren't any strat resources.
- get Sailing early and bank on a saving grace Galley. Galley may allow to settle further north by the lakes. Also ensures earlier island cities. I can't say that settling a couple of extra cities early on is enough to win this map, though... There is a lot to do.


Me ? I'd certainly stake my life on the galley (and maybe regret it later on).


EDIT :
I'm not sure how good/bad it went for you.
So, to illustrate, here's the sort of expansion one can expect with the early galley (rest assured, it's nothing terrific ^^).
@ 425 BC :
Spoiler :
WBRiM2g.jpg
 
BornInCantaloup,

Spoiler :


I've played turns into this map, it's definitely on the harder side of Pangaea :(

Seeing the small strip of land we're blocked on,
I think the alternative at the start is to either :
- aggress Joao, steal workers, try to choke and cripple him as much as possible... This seems dangerous at best, suicidal at worst. Start lacks the commerce to make Archery a super appealing tech and there are so little tiles that the possibility is real there aren't any strat resources.
- get Sailing early and bank on a saving grace Galley. Galley may allow to settle further north by the lakes. Also ensures earlier island cities. I can't say that settling a couple of extra cities early on is enough to win this map, though... There is a lot to do.


Me ? I'd certainly stake my life on the galley (and maybe regret it later on).


EDIT :
I'm not sure how good/bad it went for you.
So, to illustrate, here's the sort of expansion one can expect with the early galley (rest assured, it's nothing terrific ^^).
@ 425 BC :

Thank a lot for giving a try.

Surpised to see how you aggressively settled Heliopolis. :king: I put the second city (Memphis) to 1E to Lagos, to block Joao and to get that stone. Then I got the Great Lighthouse and settled the same Island cities (and even went further settling city on 1 tile island which cost me 10 gpt :lol:). Another city was on the right stone.

As I mentioned, this allowed to win Lib. However, even having so many food it is not convenient to tranport army from cities which are very far...

I can see that your save is much better. I used to chop forest heavily, but after the recent OCC games I became ecologists. :lol: Probably I should use cottages as well. At least for the capital in this game. Usually I build 6-7-8 cities and when I came to 500-700 AD they just finishing the main buildings (granary+lighhouse+forge+barack+stable+theatre/library). Also I forgot to run specialists in 2 or 3 city (for 4-5 city it looks like late).

The picture

Spoiler :


attachment.php





What about Elepult rush? It could allow to take 2-3 good cities from Joao.




 

Attachments

  • Egypt375BC.jpg
    Egypt375BC.jpg
    245.4 KB · Views: 390
Spoiler :
Surpised to see how you aggressively settled Heliopolis.

What about Elepult rush? It could allow to take 2-3 good cities from Joao.

Spoiler :
Heliopolis has been my gambit for this game. Thebes provided the settler and the galley came from Memphis (hence Memphis' location, otherwise your spot is better). Tech path : Fishing, Mining, Sailing, BW, Pottery, Writing.
I hoped to block a luxurious peninsula with this settler but could only get the single city. Another benefit of this grab is that it opens different neighbours than Joao for a first war. So it adds flexibility in the diplo.
Still, stealing Corn+Bananas make it, imho, a strong move. City provided the GS for Thebes' Academy and will raise the 2nd GS as well (to bulb into Education).

This can make it clearer as to how this map is a hard one.
It's got to do with the lack of good city spots. Especially for cities n° 2 & 3.
Your Memphis blocks some land from Joao but that land is all brown and resource poor. There's not even a river for free commerce.
I think that's worth noting.
A poor city 2 sets one back by a lot.

I think your city 2 has been a drain, rather than a help. If I had settled in this area, I'd have tried to at least steal a food source from Joao (the dry Rice ? I'm quite sure the pigs are out of the equation). But even that isn't very good and would make it hard to raise the commerce output.
Otoh, the trouble with settling city 2 north, in a corner, is that it forgoes a lot of land. One is accepting from very early on to let Joao set up his block. But the tiles in the north are better and can actually help with commerce.
Hence the galley, I guess. Galley reduces the risk of getting stuck to 3 cities after not expanding west.

The early galley, I'll mention it again, also finds its use on the way back, since it allows to prioritize settling multiple food island cities, rather than single food brown land cities.
Settling any double food city 10 or 15 turns earlier is something to try for.

So, if at t100 my cities look better developed, it's not necessarily due to better city management.
It may rather be due to settling stronger cities and going sideways, finding back alleys to do so.

A game played and constricted to our starting peninsula would be very hard to win.
Whatever the point of the game one would choose to try and break out, it would require full commitment (War Elephants, Maces or draft Rifles could be options ; I'd probably try for the Globe Theatre + Draft rifles and run the risk of getting irremediably out-teched).


State of my game at 1 AD :
Land looks fine, although there aren't many land tiles and some AIs are huge :
Spoiler :
M70ka90.jpg

Tech race is close :
Spoiler :
eMRFakH.jpg



0 wonders, there. I don't have a very elaborate opinion on the GLH. Wonder is good but costs a lot. It's hard to tell whether the wonder or the earlier cities or are better.


You ask about a War Elephants breakout and I have an opinion on that, however.
In short : I'd much rather use Swordsmen (trading for IW) or Macemen (trading for MC or Machinery) than War Elephants (researching HBR and Construction).
The beaker investment to go for WEs is huge, at a time one could aim for Currency and Civil Service. Researching Machinery after CS looks a lot more reasonable to me.
Many players don't have the same opinion on the subject and swear WEs are the best unit before Cuirassiers.
I think that they die too much (accessing Combat promo only) and delay research too much (self tech Construction, can you then trade it ?). I'm fine with researching HBR but Construction is a tech I'd much rather trade for.
Trouble with Elephult is that Construction unlocks both units you want to spam.

On the other hand, Swordsmen require 0 tech investment. Macemen likely require Machinery.
Machinery is an expensive tech but it comes at a time when your Empire is much better developed, compared with Construction. What you're delaying with Machinery isn't Currency + Civil Service but Education only.
Say you're going to bulb into Education and your GPs are not ready, is it a big loss to sidetrack for Machinery ? Not necessarily so.
Finally, Macemen and Swords don't die as much as WEs, because they can get huge bonuses off the City Raider promo.

So WEs... run the risk to tank your tech rate and have you fall behind in the tech race, or even disappear from the tech trading game.
Also, they're not good enough units to justify the commitment and come at an unfavourable stage of the game.
If you want them early enough, you're limiting yourself to 5 or less cities (with this land ??? can one actually get them "early enough" ???) and then you're whipping your few cities for super expensive 60 hammers items... and you need Catapults on top... and melee against Spearmen ?? And maybe you've built Stables, and Barracks ??
WEs can run into tough counter units, too : Spears, of course, but also Longbows, which can be active from very early on.

Take Maces for a comparison. They're available shortly after WEs but the only hard counter unit is the Crossbow. It's a lot easier to play around that, be it by choosing the war target or by mixing units in one's own stack (a couple of Longbows are fine).
With Maces and siege, you can actually control your losses and, therefore, your tech pace, and remain in the race.
Taking down a single neighbour is no good if the cost is too high and other AIs runaway.


Again, other players would have different opinions on this matter.
Just take this post for what it is, my opinion.
 
Re : warring with Elephants, Macemen or other early stuff :

Spoiler :
What I'd be more inclined to do, rather than go full on military build up is :
Slowly whip Catapults for garrisons (from my 1 AD save) and maybe join a war of opportunity.
If one of my 3 neighbours gets dragged into a war, having already some active Catapults will make it a lot easier to gather a stack capable of capturing a few cities.

Catapults retain their use for a very long time frame, so this is a very conservative investment for a little cost and, possibly, high upside. For offensive units, I'd use whatever I have access to at that time.
NB : this isn't a plan to force onto a map. Rather a reactive way to go with the flow, leaving possibilities open. It's all diplo- or event-dependent.
 
Re : warring with Elephants, Macemen or other early stuff :

Well..I tried elepult just now and found that the land is really really poor. :lol: For everthing. In the beginning I though that may be the Great Lighthouse could help. Now I see that this map is beyond my ailities, especially with those AIs.

So, I leave this map to masters. :king: I need something average.
 
Back
Top Bottom