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Deity: Can you play passive pre-100 turns?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by InDubioProReo, Apr 26, 2013.

  1. InDubioProReo

    InDubioProReo Warlord

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    I recently won my first ever Deity game yesterday, a scientific victory on Pangaea. I didn't fight a single war whole game, I kept my neighbour cool with me so he didn't attack me. However, I have troubles fighting early on in Deity. In Immortal and levels before that, the strategy I used for domination games was getting up my NC and universities with a setup of 4-5 core cities, and as soon as the universities and the necessary techs are done, prepare a big push with cannons and muskeeters to go and attack in the earliest opportunity. (This is unless I had an opportunity to push early or the civ I'm playing has UUs that I can use for push timings). However, I have yet to do this successfully in Deity.

    My dilemma is this: If I produce lots of units, I fall behind in tech. To have a chance of equalizing with AI on tech level, I need to focus on beelining Education and such to make sure I get my bpt up. However if I do that, I don't really have time to prepare for pushes. If I try after all the economy part is complete, the AI has an army/city/production advantage that they can use to crush any push I can bring.

    I am aware of how strong CBs are if you can get to them fast and attack with a 6-8 CB push. However at that point if I have this force, I'm either behind in tech, or I'm already using it to defend, or I'm trying to push but AI still has larger force than me. I feel like passive early, super aggressive around renessaince approach doesn't work in Deity. I feel like I have to push and take cities early on, preferably pre-100 or 120 turns in standard if I ever have a chance for domination. What am I missing here?
     
  2. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    cb usually works only on a "weak" civ one which f.e. lost army in an offense or which is generally weak and small - a strong deity civ just can build more units as cb can kill.

    Xbows work better :) and arties and gattlings.

    But as said top - timing is very important when u attack
     
  3. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Both approaches work. I started warring (with artilleries) as late as turn 170 and still won deity standard. I too favour early CB rush, when such opportunity is in existence. Usually, capturing cities early more than pays for itself, and all that late game gold can be re-invested in even more conquering, snowballing to domination. I use GS, Oxford and such to slingshot ahead in military tech. at some point, if CB rush is out of the question.
     
  4. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    I'm always surprised to see the word "cannon" in association with warfare and strategy here. Cannon-vs-contemporary city strength is really poor. I've done some cannon-backed invasions on immortal but they were always out of desperation and always transitional¬ódraw my far stronger neighbor into a border fight to draw out their units and make kills. I'll keep this up for 30 turns while I tech toward artillery but I won't move my cannons a hex closer because they'll be wiped out in one hit.

    I only play immortal and only win ~50% but I face the same dilemma each game that you outline above. I conquer pre-100 whenever my start's less than astounding, obviously. Otherwise my preference is to launch first conquer phase with trebuchets/pikes/knights, because trebs are pretty strong. Then I organize for a second conquer phase with artillery.

    Artillery is my fav tech to time invasion with because the AI should still be ~20 turns from flight and therefor helpless no matter the disparity in ground force strength, because you turn their own cities into traps (allowing city recapture over and over to clear away their melee units), and because snagging Fertilizer 50 turns before the AI is a solid hedge against being out-teched.
     
  5. VilePilot

    VilePilot Warlord

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    What I do is to start planning for massive military production pre-100 on deity. For the first hundred turns a lot of my games could be considered playing passively, but that's only because I am building military infrastructure.


    I've given up trying to be peaceful on deity unless I am going for a specific victory or objective.
     
  6. plast

    plast Chieftain

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    I prefer the AI to declare war early, but I don't go after them until much later. I like to have 4 cities initially and perhaps found another 2 later on.

    If you have a decent amount of CBs (upgraded from archers) you can just let them sit comfortably and collect XP. The AI will rarely throw anything at you that you will need to worry about. By the time the CBs have logistics+range(+march) they are close to untouchable. If in addition you have 4-6 catapult as well and let them sit in your cities collecting XP, you will eventually have very powerful artillery+gatling guns. All you need later on is a knight or two to scout and to take their cites when they are at 0 hp. This way you can wipe an entire continent with a few units and notloose a single one of them.
     
  7. VilePilot

    VilePilot Warlord

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    Yeah, that is basically the strategy I am talking about.
     
  8. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Not much really. Early aggression pays off due to extra cities you get through conquest and extra space you claim to settle even more cities. If you pump out nothing but units early on while sitting on defense, you're going to be boxed in very quickly and things will get significantly harder.
    I can only echo what others said. The easiest way is to let the closest AI attack you, push back with CB's, tech towards Machinery, upgrade and move to the next target. After that you can choose between artillery/cavalry combo and gatlings which are close enough to public schools so you don't need to take a long detour and compromise your science. AI's tech rate is usually what determines the path for me. If it techs reasonably fast, I prefer ST earlier rather than later, conquer what I can with gatlings (I always have a big army of crossbows, so gatlings do a lot of damage) and beeline bombers. If AI is nappy or alternatively I unlock Dynamite very early (requires beeline and minimum early wars that slow you down), I go with artillery and beeline bombers. Once you have those and AI is not too far ahead, the game is over.
     
  9. VilePilot

    VilePilot Warlord

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    Also, peaceful does not equal passive. One can be just as aggressive in peace as they are in war.


    The key word is proactive, you have to be proactive no matter if you play peacefully or warlike.
     
  10. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Very true. Bribing civs to DoW each other all the time is mandatory. On top of improving player's chances not to be attacked, constant fighting slows their science and that is invaluable.
     
  11. VilePilot

    VilePilot Warlord

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    of all the strategies I have a problem with this one and research agreements.
     
  12. InDubioProReo

    InDubioProReo Warlord

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    Thanks for responses. I thought everyone rushed AI from the get go in Deity. It seems that is not really the case.

    Anyway, right now I'm playing a game on Epic with Mongolia. Large, Epic speed on Deity. Early game was rough, had to defend myself against both Siam and Spain. Managed to hold on with 4 cities, got my NC, teched to Chivalry with 5-6 Chariot Archers ready, and then upgraded them with the money I got from selling my luxury resources. For a long time my cities stayed fairly small pop due to staying negative happiness for a long time. From that point the runaway Darius had a 20% Literacy advantage over me.

    Game went on, and with Keshiks I conquered the lands of Austria, Spain and Siam. Got my Universities and Public Schools up (bought them with the money I got form a peace treaty, so they were late but I didn't build them). Darius now has 25% literacy advantage over me, I'm at Industrial age and he just hit Atomic, he just finished Apollo Program, and the route I decided to take (tech to flight and then go with bombers) seems like it's gonna take a lot of time and I'm not sure if I really have time when he is so far ahead. Attila DoWed me and I'm going to hold him off for now and tech to flight, however I'm not sure if this game is winnable. My bpt is 356 right now but Persia is still miles ahead. By the time I'm done with Attila and Polynesia, how am I ever going to be able to take him out? Is it time to end this game, or is it still possible?

    I build units early game to stay alive and make sure I can make a push with Keshiks, but it feels like it cost me a lot. How can I play aggressive without falling behind in tech?
     
  13. VilePilot

    VilePilot Warlord

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    restart the game and try attacking persia instead. Sometimes you need to take down the big guy, Mongolia gives you that option with Keshiks.


    You need mechanized infantry and bombers to take down Keshiks.


    Just be patient until they get upgraded and constantly keep an eye out for lancers and knights, they are your only enemy. They aren't enough to stop an invasion force but they are enough to put a serious hurt on you.
     
  14. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    What's the problem?

    356 bpt when your rival is in Atomic era is not gonna cut it. Sounds like wars took you too long, when on epic the contrary should be the case.
     
  15. VilePilot

    VilePilot Warlord

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    I don't like trading with the AI, especially strategies that rely on it. If you spawn on a continent with 1 other AI you have to wait minimum until astronomy to even make contact with other civs. By then its turn 120ish+

    Which is why I like Polynesia but yall made fun of me for that.


    As for the OP, define passive. Are you using passive a synonomen for peaceful?

    you can overcome a tech lead, even a big tech lead if you have a well trained army
     
  16. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    I'm sure you realize there is an enormous difference between 'I like civ X for its strengths which are A, B and C' statement and 'X is da best no matter what and all settings it doesn't shine on are stupid'.

    To a certain extent. You can't overcome air force heavy atomic nation with industrial era land units. You need planes to beat planes and due to 356bpt these are too far away.
     
  17. VilePilot

    VilePilot Warlord

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    Just spam AA units :p

    take the cities with your AA unit army lol

    88 bruh oorah
     
  18. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    AA requires same tech level as planes.
     
  19. VilePilot

    VilePilot Warlord

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    Technically, but planes require oil and oil requires you to research biology.
     
  20. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    The point is both require research level 356bpt doesn't allow. And if you insist on treating AA joke seriously, then no, you can't conquer a runaway opponent by spamming AA guns. You need range bombardment and artillery is useless against 140 strength cities.
     

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