Deity Challenge #18 - Carthage/Large Islands

[Merenptah]

well Merenptah you really got a very low science output for this kind of stage of the game, even if you have just 3 cities thats waaaaaaaaay to low to get anything done

I think the point of these challenges and them being in the strategy & tips forums is to compare "actually implemented" strategies on a very specific start rather than just exchange "generic" views.

So, are you actually playing this save or just making a random comment? And why would you be looking at BPTs when we are talking about Culture endgame and I already have Broadcast Towers in all cities? I do have Public Schools in every city as well so what you see is certainly not my max BPT since I am only running Artists and no Scientists ...

You have the save, so please do show me a how to do a sub T265 CV on this map (not a HOF map). And I'd be curious to know: what's your max CPT? Which WW have you built and when? How did it go with Religion? Did you manage to get any Cultural CS allies and for how long? How did diplomacy go ... or rather, what did you do when the AI showed up with sizeable army protected by an equally sizeable naval force? How was production? Where you able to quickly built or buy all the units, science, culture and happiness buildings you needed? How did you prioritize on these?

I have great respect for this forum; people are smart and polite and I've greatly enjoyed reading and contributing to this forum. Not a bragging board, but a place to discuss ideas, successes as well as failures (from which we learn the most) in a constructive way. Looking forward to see more results and comments from people that actually played this save EVEN if they didn't win (rather than from people that haven't even tried). Thanks!

PS: FireOrb, I see you've edited your post and playing the save now ... good!

 

[glory7]

Thanks for posting this tempting map and game ... stopped my GOTM game to play this ... for a big slap in the face

To all those thinking that being "Large Islands" this should be easier than a Pangea Deity game, I can assure you that this is not the case, because:

For domination, large lslands/archipelago maps are generally easier than Pangea, as you can beeline to frigates and AIs suck at naval warfare. You can usually finish the game with frigates - and if needed, beeline battleships and they will just kill everything.

Spoiler :

Lack of iron, like in this map, is really painful in naval maps. I could only get 6 irons so could use only 6 frigates for like 20 turns... that delayed the finish time significantly. If I remember correctly this map was a rare case I reached battleship techs before I win the game.

For culture, I think it's much harder as it is more difficult to defend, you meet culture CS later, and it is more difficult to slow down AIs. It was very impressive that you aimed for CV at this map.

 

[glory7]

Spoiler :

I received a lot of gold from lux trades and had four cities building Galleases so with rushbuying three of them, I had 7-8 of them ready go with 4 Quinqueremes to visit Ottomans since he had iron and I didn't. Around T105 I DoW'd him and took Ankara easily for Iron but Istanbul was a bit hard to get. Only three spots to shoot the city and he had an Xbow and a Galleas sitting there. Finally around T120 he was out of the game since England took his last city at the same turn as I took Istanbul.

William went Renaissance really early and I gambled my spy on his biggest city hoping to steal Navigation. Rushbought Uni on my cap and filled it with scientist just in case it went wrong. I had a GS from Liberty finisher and used it to finish Astronomy (I had 1 turn left) when finally after 16 long turns my spy brought good news and I was able to get Frigates around T120.

Spoiler :

T105 7-8 galleass is very impressive. I should try liberty if I play large islands later. I am used to archipelogo maps where you don't have enough spaces to expand (and don't need to worry about other AIs settling at 'your' island) and tend to use tradition 1-2 cities. I had to build 3 cities to fill the island and actually my tech was slower.

I also saw that Ottomans had 6 iron and 2 iron, but it was a long way to get there and he had like 20 triremes in my game. T120 istanbul capture and frigates... really nice.

getting navigation with spy is also very impressive. Does that work with high probabilities? I usually find that AIs don't have that tech.

 

[jeespoks]

Spoiler :

T105 7-8 galleass is very impressive. I should try liberty if I play large islands later. I am used to archipelogo maps where you don't have enough spaces to expand (and don't need to worry about other AIs settling at 'your' island) and tend to use tradition 1-2 cities. I had to build 3 cities to fill the island and actually my tech was slower.

I also saw that Ottomans had 6 iron and 2 iron, but it was a long way to get there and he had like 20 triremes in my game. T120 istanbul capture and frigates... really nice.

getting navigation with spy is also very impressive. Does that work with high probabilities? I usually find that AIs don't have that tech.

Spoiler :

Thanks glory. Liberty, especially with Carthage's free harbors, works great on domination. Doesn't matter if you've room to expand because you'll get free harbors on conquered cities too. Besides the happiness, the instant, free trade routes will give a nice gpt, especially If you can build or take Machu Picchu from AI. At T 170 I'm getting 130 gpt from trade routes and have stayed happy apart from a few turns when razing two cities at the same time.

Ottomans didn't have a lot of ships in my game. I faced maybe 5 or 6 Galleases total and a few Triremes.

This was a first time a stole navigation. When William hit Renaissance so early I suspected he went for Astronomy and sent my spy there immediately and kept looking his city if he'll start building a seaport or Sea Beggars. Anyway I had one GS in case my spy got killed but that would've meant navigation maybe 5 turns later.

The first 120 turns went as planned and I got everything on control but then a DoW by Harald and my units were still healing on Ottomans island and a few turns later a DoW by William. Harald was easy, he couldn't get hardly any units past of my CS ally alive and I made peace with him 10 turns later. William otherhand had many Sea Beggars (I stole 4-5 of them with Privateers and sinked maybe 15 or more) but fortunately only Galleases as he had no iron. William's cities were easy to take though. A lot of spots to shoot and most of my Frigates had range at this point. Anyway the war with William went way longer than I hoped because the size of his army and his many cities (took 4 and razed 5 or 6).

I stayed friends with Korea and Byzantium since both had spare iron and William didn't gave me any. I'm on my way to London now (6 iron + Great Lighthouse and Forbidden Palace), but it'll take a long time though, Liz's SotLs and Longbows are everywhere and there's only a few spots to shoot the city even with range +1.

 

[jeespoks]

How can you whine about IP!

I wasn't, it was my 2nd choice after RT for enhancer. The biggest tradeoff was enhancing later, 4th to enhance on T100 vs 1st to do that on T50 is a big difference in means of spreading your religion. Also had to settle for +1 food belief and there were many beliefs I'd rather have taken, any of the happiness or production beliefs would've been way better.

 

[Fire0rb]

Finished Playing... Turn 264 via Diplomatic Victory but i was a close call

@Merenptah Sorry for the random comment, i did not see the CV attempt notice my bad

Spoiler :

After Getting Frigates i was able to slowly defeat Kamehameha. His capital was a real pain to take because he bought every freaking turn a caraval or a frigate and attacked rigth into the line of frigates. After i got 5 Frigates to 3 range Honolulu finally went down. Due to the fact he was in war with everybody is was able to sell all of his other cities for 50 gpt each (which was very neat 150 gpt )
I chilled a bit afterwards and waited for the Battleship tech to complete (took me a while) and i still was about 10% back in tech to the top 4.
When battelships were up the commonewealth of the leaders in the game decided Theodora was a threat to the world and ALL AIs DoW'ed her in the same turn and all asking me to join xD (never happend to me before in this scale)
So i attack "with" the AI and took Theodoras cities (2 of them i sold to the korean guy who still gave me 50gpt per city .
Situation afterwards
Theodoras Homeland (could have sold Adrianople as well actually, only capitals was improtant with 3 Happiness-Wonders)

Spoiler :

Homeland of Kamehameha Sold his cities to all the AIs

Spoiler :

My Homeland

Spoiler :

I bulbed everything up to UN but i failed miserably as you can see, because i had 1 scientist too much which i bought with faith... i should have bought a GE to speed up the UN and i had no Golden Age for the extra hammers.... so it took 14 Turns to fninsh

Spoiler :

AFter that i got DoW'ed by William Turn 245 and Suleiman Turn 248 which were a mere nuisance with their massive fleet because i had alrdy build some submarines

The REAL problem was Lizzy which went Full Patronage in the game and was allying and couping all game long.
Only could hold Sydney, Cahokia and Kuala Lumpur due to Spies who occasionally couped as well to egt the influence back.
i started selling science buildings immediatly after UN tech finished and after UN finished i sold all the one which give a lot of gold back.
And still with 10k gold i was barely able to achieve the 10 CS Allies because Lizzy had with some CS about 150-200 Influence. Should have taken the policy with more influenc with gold gifts...

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

The money in the last screenshots are misleading because i took all the gold from Lizzy before i DoW'ed her 1 Turn before UN so she could not coup too easy.
After getting the CS i had literally only 50g left

A Lot of gold was sunk by bribing the AIs against each other which was the main reason noone had completed ANY spaceship parts yet (though all of them were able to).
In the end Lizzy William and Sejong nuked each other liek crazy, all of their islands had fallout so very lucky for me but i alrdy planned to build some nukes myself if someone gets close finished a SV but wasn not needed.

Not very easy DC imo because of the ultimate lack of Iron and until you get to the iron the other AIs are so ahead in tech that i had no chance in winning an early domination

 

[Light Cleric]

Thanks for posting this tempting map and game ... stopped my GOTM game to play this ... for a big slap in the face

To all those thinking that being "Large Islands" this should be easier than a Pangea Deity game, I can assure you that this is not the case, because:

Spoiler :

1. No Wonders: I beelined Philosophy and started building Oracle before NC with Lizzy completing it a few turns in. Then I focusses on getting a GE, who then was just sitting there the entire game as not even the crappiest WW was ever available to be built. Had three cities and after Philosophy, Education went for Astronomy and got the Observatory ... still, I did not even get close in getting any WW.
   
2. No Iron: Didn't have any; CS didn't have any; AI had some available eventually but too late and too little for a Frigate rush.
   
3. No CS Allies: Most AIs where aggressively buying CS Alliances + Coups; did not manage to get a single Cultural CS Ally and only a sinlge Cultural CS Friend from having a Spy there for election rigging. My only ally was Vatican City (Religious CS on my island), where I had my first spy, and which I kept dear in case I would get attacked.
   
4. No Religious Choices: Despite "One with Nature" as Pantheon and with focused effort, i.e. with two early secondary cities and tile purchases, I wasn't even able to get "World Church" as Founder Belief, let alone "Religious Texts" as Enhancer Belief.
   
   View attachment 350466
   

Looking forward to see how AE is doing or anyone else attempting a CV. Feedback on my game also much appreciated (see screenshot in spoiler).

Large Islands in general are much easier than Continents/Pangaea but still harder than Archipelago because the AI at least has some room where it understands how to expand.

For CV:

Spoiler :

The problem is you have two of the biggest wonderwhore civs in the game on the same map. No wonder is "required" for any VC, but not being able to get The Oracle is devastating for Culture. The Oracle is effectively worth however much culture your 30th policy costs, like 8000-9000 or whatever depending on Representation, not to mention it slows down getting the benefits of the other policies, namely faster Tradition finisher, faster Piety, etc. Additionally, the inability to get World Wonders screws you out of Reformation's culture bonus.

I would not even attempt a CV on this kind of map.

 

[glory7]

Spoiler :

Thanks glory. Liberty, especially with Carthage's free harbors, works great on domination. Doesn't matter if you've room to expand because you'll get free harbors on conquered cities too. Besides the happiness, the instant, free trade routes will give a nice gpt, especially If you can build or take Machu Picchu from AI. At T 170 I'm getting 130 gpt from trade routes and have stayed happy apart from a few turns when razing two cities at the same time.

Ottomans didn't have a lot of ships in my game. I faced maybe 5 or 6 Galleases total and a few Triremes.

This was a first time a stole navigation. When William hit Renaissance so early I suspected he went for Astronomy and sent my spy there immediately and kept looking his city if he'll start building a seaport or Sea Beggars. Anyway I had one GS in case my spy got killed but that would've meant navigation maybe 5 turns later.

The first 120 turns went as planned and I got everything on control but then a DoW by Harald and my units were still healing on Ottomans island and a few turns later a DoW by William. Harald was easy, he couldn't get hardly any units past of my CS ally alive and I made peace with him 10 turns later. William otherhand had many Sea Beggars (I stole 4-5 of them with Privateers and sinked maybe 15 or more) but fortunately only Galleases as he had no iron. William's cities were easy to take though. A lot of spots to shoot and most of my Frigates had range at this point. Anyway the war with William went way longer than I hoped because the size of his army and his many cities (took 4 and razed 5 or 6).

I stayed friends with Korea and Byzantium since both had spare iron and William didn't gave me any. I'm on my way to London now (6 iron + Great Lighthouse and Forbidden Palace), but it'll take a long time though, Liz's SotLs and Longbows are everywhere and there's only a few spots to shoot the city even with range +1.

Spoiler :

Thank you for your reply. I still remember DC6 - I was pretty proud of my record but you did beat me, so I expected you to play well at this naval war one too, and it turned to be true. I haven't even thought of liberty - my fault.

I did buy irons from Korea too - actually those were the only irons that I had for 20 turns after navigation.

Maybe I should try replaying this map with liberty, as you suggested. I am pretty sure that we'd pick the same/very similar city spots, but could you post a screenshot when you got compass or education?

 

[Johan^^]

Hi there

Question on mechanics:
I have chosen "Messenger of the gods", but does not recieve the science bonus even though i can see i get gold from trade routes ?

Any idea why....

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Does your city have the little pantheon symbol on it, the little lightning bolt? Settling after you have founded a religion will need it spread to that city. settling before founding should grant it the pantheon. also, if you havent teched The Wheel you dont technically have a trade route yet. I'm assuming the little triangle is there saying you have a trade route?

sometimes there can be a weird pressure scenario where a 2 pop city (or any even numbered pop) will have 1 following the pantheon and 1 following a religion and it will negate the city's ability to benefit from either. i dont know if that was intentional by the game but it has happened to me before.

 

[jeespoks]

Large Islands in general are much easier than Continents/Pangaea but still harder than Archipelago because the AI at least has some room where it understands how to expand.

Maybe in general. I've played only maybe three Large Islands games but to me it seems it way harder than Archipelago and pretty close to Continents. In Deity, the AI doesn't seem to suffer from Large Islands, almost feels like to contrary. They have room to expand quickly 3 or 4 cities and they usually hit Optics early to continue spreading cities but it seems they'll start fighting each other much later, if at all, on Large Islands than on Continents/Pangaea and can focus on science and wonder whoring. But as I said, I don't have enough experience on Large Islands yet so maybe you're right.

 

[Catan_Settler]

Where are you looking to see your science bonus? I am thinking you would have to have the city open, mouse over the number of beakers the city outputs, and then read that page to see. It should be listed as Science from Religion: 2

 

[jeespoks]

Spoiler :

Thank you for your reply. I still remember DC6 - I was pretty proud of my record but you did beat me, so I expected you to play well at this naval war one too, and it turned to be true. I haven't even thought of liberty - my fault.

I did buy irons from Korea too - actually those were the only irons that I had for 20 turns after navigation.

Maybe I should try replaying this map with liberty, as you suggested. I am pretty sure that we'd pick the same/very similar city spots, but could you post a screenshot when you got compass or education?

Spoiler :

The starting location and the civ choice for the map type on DC6 were so good that it was just steamrolling through everyone (except France) without problems. My few turns faster finish there was probably just a matter of luck with the AI.

For Carthage Liberty is a no-brainer on water map but usually I've went Tradition on water maps and settled only two or three cities so I can build Oxford (for Navigation) and Heroic Epic. I've also tried to research Iron asap and scout as much as possible before that so I'd know where the iron is and tried to take out with Galleases the closest civ with iron, even if I had iron available on my lands.

I can post screenshots a bit later but my city spots choices weren't very good on this map. I played the first turns very quickly and didn't consider careful enough where to settle (settled cap on initial spot, didn't notice the mountain and didn't realize that I'd need only 3 cities to fill my island).

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Where are you looking to see your science bonus? I am thinking you would have to have the city open, mouse over the number of beakers the city outputs, and then read that page to see. It should be listed as Science from Religion: 2

i dont think you need to do this with city screen. from the total beakers, if you hover over it, should say how many you are getting from religion and the math should be easy to deduce from that.

 

[jeespoks]

Spoiler :

Not the best game I've played. I feel that I was too slow taking out the first civs. Got greedy and took too many cities. Happiness from Religion and Trade Routes helped the expansion and at the end I still had over 20 cities even though I razed about 10 cities and sold one to Korea. Trade routes with the help of Macchu Picchu gave me over 250 gpt.

I took out Ottomans with Galleases, William, Polynesia, England and Harald with Frigates and Korea and Byzantium with Battleships (Oil was plenty). Korea was a runaway and had Subs and Battleships but not enough of them. England was a bit hard to take too, London had a good terrain to defend. SotLs and Longbows didn't make the task too easy. Had to bring a few Gatlings to help to take the city.

Did anyone else finish this or did you all get bored? Btw Merentaph...really bold effort to try cultural win on this map. I don't think they has been many cultural wins on DCs anyway, I can remember only one or maybe two succesful attemps so far.

 

[Fire0rb]

i finished diplo 264 but i wasnt satisfied with my game and i had no time / no fun replaying this water map^^

btw how do you do the "T215 Domination Victory" thingy?

 

[Light Cleric]

Did anyone else finish this or did you all get bored?

I've gotten enough time to start my LP of it, but water maps put me to sleep, so the answer is "kind of'.

 

[budweiser]

jeespoks - In many ways the screenshot of the promo set on that battleship encapsulates what this version of civ is all about. If you can tech enough to keep a unit current with a promo path like that, you have what it takes to carve out a victory. It can be land, sea or air units.