Deity Challenge - Pocatello's New World

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

_megafone_, you cut that really close with the GL -- the two games I played, it was built turn 31 and turn 32! Nicely done.

 

[Tabarnak]

Yeah that's the oddity of this game. Having a lot of warmongers make things easier if you stay small. Though it is not really easy for me right now(turn 163) because i'm still at war against Monty and Oda, but only defeinding a little bit. Shaka is easy to bribe and is fighing for me since turn 60.

I took a risk of being more substantially DoWed but that's because i'm not only for a ''win'' but more for a fast win(which i don't know if i will achieve yet). More culture buildings, more science, moe everything...hoping for a decent finish time.

P.S : Playing a game like this reminds me how much better are mp games in term of diplomacy and intelligence level from other countries...

 

[Loucypher]

I guess I'm just not good enough in the whole managing wars kind of thing yet to truly be good at Deity. In my own attempts, I kept getting trampled...or Bismark ran away with the whole thing. Seemed to be no in betweens for me.
It is a great way to learn from those who are more experienced though.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

To you CV people (congrats, by the way. I won't even ask if you abused the overflow exploit ), what order did you tech in for:

Scientific Theory
Fertilizer
Radio
Archaeology
Plastics

I mix up the order of these things quite a bit but generally when going for CV it's

ST-->Radio-->Archaeology-->Fertilizer-->Plastics (or Plastics-->Fertilizer).

Given the number of pastures and lack of rivers on this map for the cap, I'd probably bump up Fertilizer a bit. BUT ... what did you guys do?

 

[kb27787]

To you CV people (congrats, by the way. I won't even ask if you abused the overflow exploit ), what order did you tech in for:

Scientific Theory
Fertilizer
Radio
Archaeology
Plastics

I mix up the order of these things quite a bit but generally when going for CV it's

ST-->Radio-->Archaeology-->Fertilizer-->Plastics (or Plastics-->Fertilizer).

Given the number of pastures and lack of rivers on this map for the cap, I'd probably bump up Fertilizer a bit. BUT ... what did you guys do?

I didn't (since GotM rules state to avoid using it) sailing line was up and running pretty quickly for me; also didn't reload any turns even though my spies kept dying on 70-80% coups but AIs were so spy-happy this game it didn't matter. (diplo boost for forgiving them + free promotion; hey "we've decided to let your transgression slide this time", "I forgive you"); played it just like any GotM.

Being with warmongers, my tech path was a little different:
ST, Radio, Fertilizer, Plastics, Archaeology (you won't believe how little warmongers care about antiquitiy sites... there were so many left in the New World that I didn't need to rush and still filled every single museum and Louvre; and Bismarck was in his own half of the world so he didn't really come over to my side for artifacts either), Radar (had to climb bottom to get artillery and military techs so won't be in danger), satellites, refrigeration, internet.

Not the tech path that would give me the quickest win, but it was pretty safe. A mobile SAM, some subs, and fortified foreign legion turned infantry pretty much means I can't be wiped out easily except with nukes (although Monty never showed signs of gathering at my borders since I kissed his ass so badly... I even voted up his proposal of world ideology: Autocracy (hey 9 happiness is a small price to pay for peace and for letting the rest of the world be happy so your win is assured... with 3 cities you can afford to do this, with 4 I might be having some problems)

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Interesting -- I guess I haven't played many games with this many warmongers. I'm always worried about having <5 antiquity sites left when I hit Plastics first, especially on Deity, but I guess it's not that big a deal!

I think I'd have hit the techs in the same order you did for a non-CV win, I know that you are "supposed" to wait as long as possible to dip down but Fertilizer on this map just seems damned good. So many pastures and riverless grasslands ...

 

[_megafone_]

I only dug three artifacts the entire game, the two that popped inside my borders and one that was close to Cahokia. I never bother with them, unless I'm playing France (if I'm in a position where I won't have enough Artists/Wonders I don't bother going CV).

I always beeline Radio (Sci Theory -> Electronics -> Radio), usually popping Oxford for it to get a faster Ideology, and then whether I go for Plastics or not depends on a couple of things.

1) Too far behind on tech? Plastics above all else.
2) Your cap is too small and has too many non-freshwater tiles? Fertilizer right after Radio (though you're usually stealing techs from that side of the tree and might be able to get it without making too much effort). It was the case of this particular map, btw.
3) Fear of getting stomped? Go Refrigeration, eyeing Oil and stealing Flight off an AI to defend yourself. Bombers are your best bet if you do happen to need to fend off attackers with a small empire.

 

[Tabarnak]

Man...now this is though. I need strong sp players here to let me know what to do here.

Picture first :

Spoiler :

Short story :

I finally made peace with Aztecs around the turn 190 but at a high price(around 50 gpt). I needed that peace deal(even if i was able to repeal him) to get access to sites. A dozen of sites have been found. I beelined Archeology then went for Radio. Maybe the opposite would have been better i'm not sure about.

I think i will not publish on youtube because i'm now at 1 TB of record and close from 8 hours of play. That's just too ridiculous. I will send images instead.

Almost no RA through game, 2 total with Germany. I made peace with Oda some turns later. But...suddenly the world drastically changed. Suddenly, Shaka and greece hated me to death. Some turns later, again, another bad new : BOTH SHAKA AND MONTY DOWED ME

Good news is that i popped 6 legions transformed into infantry units just in time. And now i'm defending since 25 turns. I can barely stop them. Planes and more infantry are coming but they will eventually research them either some day. They have eat some cs which didn't help on the long run.

I'm average in food/production, 2nd in population, 1st in science by 5% and 1st in score. Maybe the score had a relation with the huge DoW i dunno. Every cultural buildings are built. The 3rd level tenet is activated. 1 policy left to complete Aesthetics. 2 into Rationalism. Cash is hard ot get, they are blocking all the opportunities to get gold from other civs.

I hate my science rate...i should have gone Public Schools before Archeology...like aways...duh. Also, despite having 3 observatories and research labs, i feel that is still too slow. Full Ratio and Order are just too good. Not used to such slowness. Ok but now...what to do to finish a cultural victory with this huge wall in front of me?

 

[kb27787]

Man...now this is though. I need strong sp players here to let me know what to do here.

Picture first :

Spoiler :

Short story :

I finally made peace with Aztecs around the turn 190 but at a high price(around 50 gpt). I needed that peace deal(even if i was able to repeal him) to get access to sites. A dozen of sites have been found. I beelined Archeology then went for Radio. Maybe the opposite would have been better i'm not sure about.

I think i will not publish on youtube because i'm now at 1 TB of record and close from 8 hours of play. That's just too ridiculous. I will send images instead.

Almost no RA through game, 2 total with Germany. I made peace with Oda some turns later. But...suddenly the world drastically changed. Suddenly, Shaka and greece hated me to death. Some turns later, again, another bad new : BOTH SHAKA AND MONTY DOWED ME

Good news is that i popped 6 legions transformed into infantry units just in time. And now i'm defending since 25 turns. I can barely stop them. Planes and more infantry are coming but they will eventually research them either some day. They have eat some cs which didn't help on the long run.

I'm average in food/production, 2nd in population, 1st in science by 5% and 1st in score. Maybe the score had a relation with the huge DoW i dunno. Every cultural buildings are built. The 3rd level tenet is activated. 1 policy left to complete Aesthetics. 2 into Rationalism. Cash is hard ot get, they are blocking all the opportunities to get gold from other civs.

I hate my science rate...i should have gone Public Schools before Archeology...like aways...duh. Also, despite having 3 observatories and research labs, i feel that is still too slow. Full Ratio and Order are just too good. Not used to such slowness. Ok but now...what to do to finish a cultural victory with this huge wall in front of me?

that looks tough man... looks like you are about to lose all your external trade routes... they have you completely surrounded. Empire two lux pillages away from falling into very unhappy... in other words, you are one mercantile CS coup away from total disaster (rebels, as far as I know, share your tech level so you'll be dealing with red infantry)

First thing is to make peace ASAP... (I'm not sure if CV is winnable with only 11 fpt though; depends on how the cultural runaway is doing)

Double DoW happens when the AIs use "shall we declare war on"... discussion; sometimes one civ agrees to war but never sends any units because of this; however, this time both of them are your neighbors... it would've been best to keep them at bad relations with each other (if you hadn't expanded like that, they would've expanded into each other early game and this problem would not likely happen, sure, one of them might DoW you, but most likely not both at the same time), barring that, you sometimes have to kiss their asses in WC just so they go DoW someone else. (also if you have time to spare on archaelogists (should be even easier if you went semi-wide, try to build one landmark each in their territory and that alone should offset the different ideology penalty)

I'm useless at fighting and war in general so don't ask me for advice about that but I think your GG might be useful somewhere...

 

[tommynt]

well u just have to "grind" for few turns ...

all out units. u lead score - your win WILL some time ...

probably pull back on 1 front a bit and make ai suicide units into city and concentrate on other front.
after some time the unit flow into your land will stop, i d then make peace with 1 civ and go on kill the other.
Build mainly units which help u in an attack later aswell. (arties ..)

dont make plain peace - but let ai blood for letting u blood!

 

[Cromagnus]

well u just have to "grind" for few turns ...

all out units. u lead score - your win WILL some time ...

probably pull back on 1 front a bit and make ai suicide units into city and concentrate on other front.
after some time the unit flow into your land will stop, i d then make peace with 1 civ and go on kill the other.
Build mainly units which help u in an attack later aswell. (arties ..)

dont make plain peace - but let ai blood for letting u blood!

What he said. Well, I'd take two pages to say it, but you know what I mean. I think that's a good plan.

 

[Tabarnak]

I lured Attila into Shaka but i dont' feel it very effective yet...he's also at war against Oda(a bit of vengance ) I lured a lot of civs throught the game...otherwise that would have been impossible with all this land grabing!

This game is like Itchy and Scratchy show intro: They fight...they fight, they fight they fight they fight, fight fight fight...fight fight fight!

Thanks for replies. I will post results only in some days i'm too busy right now.

 

[kb27787]

What he said. Well, I'd take two pages to say it, but you know what I mean. I think that's a good plan.

what are you going to do about the unhappiness? He's already at -5... one more occupied city would be too much.

Getting labeled a warmonger would be the final nail in the coffin for CV; since that culture runaway (I'm guessing either Greece or Germany) will never let you have OB or routes... Worst case if he has not been couping properly, he's gonna get embargo:the Shoshones slapped on him.

 

[Cromagnus]

Hmm, I dunno. Depends on why he's unhappy. If he's not suffering ideological pressure, then it's probably something easily fixed with a social policy in 2 turns. If he's suffering ideological pressure, CV ain't gonna work out so well anyhow.

I'm still in the middle of this game myself. I guess it wouldn't surprise anyone that I started out... less than peacefully.

Warring with warmongers is the best. No one hates you because they're all at war with each other.

Still, I've got my own uphill battle to climb. I started off trying to bridge from an early CB rush to an artillery/cav finish, and then I got distracted by the Terra, and now I'm wanting to go full Order and place crap tons of new cities in the New World... just because. I may just retire on this game... it's going to go real long, and slow to boot. Out of all the civs I like for Terra, Pocatello doesn't have anything with synergy. Now if this were Carthage or Spain, different story.

 

[Tabarnak]

So i continued my game. Some infantry and air units were added to the initial group. A well placed citadel detered a lot of Shaka's units. Some turns later i could make a fair peace deal and concentrate on Monty this time. With so much units, he couldn't stand me for a long time. All of their main cities have been captured.

Spoiler :

Peace deal again but this time with 2 other remaining cities that i sold to Germany. Now that' i'm finally full peaceful again(war since turn 90!) i finally built all airports, hotels available excepted 5th city. Internet is discovered.

Spoiler :

Question now : How to boost culture from now on? I have to build the NW of culture in capital but is this will be enough?

Edit : Have just read megafone's earlier post about diplomats. Do they can generate culture? Or at least to get a faster one? If so, how?

 

[kb27787]

So i continued my game. Some infantry and air units were added to the initial group. A well placed citadel detered a lot of Shaka's units. Some turns later i could make a fair peace deal and concentrate on Monty this time. With so much units, he couldn't stand me for a long time. All of their main cities have been captured.

Spoiler :

Peace deal again but this time with 2 other remaining cities that i sold to Germany. Now that' i'm finally full peaceful again(war since turn 90!) i finally built all airports, hotels available excepted 5th city. Internet is discovered.

Spoiler :

Question now : How to boost culture from now on? I have to build the NW of culture in capital but is this will be enough?

Edit : Have just read megafone's earlier post about diplomats. Do they can generate culture? Or at least to get a faster one? If so, how?

tourism, not culture decides CV; your accumulated tourism must equal or exceed the culture that each civ generates in its lifetime (at around t300 deity AI have around 30-60k culture, highly variable); Great musicians can use the concert tour to provide a bulk amount to target civ, similar but opposite to the great writer. Hermitage is good only if you have something to fill it.

To increase tourism, freedom can build broadcast towers, but I think CN tower is the easiest.

There is no need to build airports in cities that do not generate tourism (you do however need hotels for every city for the national visitor center)

Diplomats will give a +25% tourism boost to a civ with DIFFERENT ideology; helping partially to offset the -34% penalty from differing ideologies. They do not provide any boost to civs with the same ideology.

 

[ravenmagus]

_megafone_, you cut that really close with the GL -- the two games I played, it was built turn 31 and turn 32! Nicely done.

GL gone on turn 24 when I played.

 

[_megafone_]

kb27787's explanation sums how Tourism works. Just gotta add that since Deity AIs absolutely hate taking Freedom, more often than not you can assume you'll always have the flat -34% penalty and will always use the diplomats to offset most of it (considering you're playing a tall/small empire strategy, as you should in most CV games).

 

[Tabarnak]

Question now : How to boost culture from now on? I have to build the NW of culture in capital but is this will be enough?

tourism, not culture decides CV

Diplomats will give a +25% tourism boost to a civ with DIFFERENT ideology; helping partially to offset the -34% penalty from differing ideologies. They do not provide any boost to civs with the same ideology.

kb27787's explanation sums how Tourism works. Just gotta add that since Deity AIs absolutely hate taking Freedom, more often than not you can assume you'll always have the flat -34% penalty and will always use the diplomats to offset most of it (considering you're playing a tall/small empire strategy, as you should in most CV games).

Stupid me i wanted to talk about tourism!!! Not culture. I will send diplomats and musicians. Aztecs is the culture leader right now but he will likely fall behind because he lost all his important cities. If i remember well i'm not a lot behind for the others.

You are right about staying small to get safe finishes. But the strongest of all victories are semi wide ones. They are just tougher to tweak.

Last question : When to pop musicians?(So i can finish the GOTM game properly too).

 

[kb27787]

When to pop musicians?(So i can finish the GOTM game properly too).

By pop I assume you mean use faith to buy... (it's a rather easy question to answer in your case since I think you can only buy one... in 30 turns or so... which is plenty of time for you to do everything in WC); usually to maximize each GM, right after NVC, internet and airport (as well as broadcast towers); in WC world religion is nowhere near as good as cultural heritage sites so make sure to get that passed... (and AIs generally don't object to that as much and some of the wondermongers actually will love you for it)

otherwise if your question meant when to build the music guild? (really tough question; delaying it too long means during the time you could've naturally generated another one and starting it too early means your musicians were not as strong as they should have been) you have to play it by ear from game to game.

Although you can time it such that the first two spawn right after you win IG, which seems to be the best time... (in some games that's the only shot you have at CV if you've had a really bad start)

In GotM I actually popped all my GM before I got an airport up in cap since I calculated I would win exactly (although I regret delaying my music guild which could've saved me 5-10 turns or so; I miscalculated and forgot I could buy one more GS instead of GM and rush-buy airport... 3x700 with a 4th coming in 4 turns > 4x500 doh!). Anyway if you see that you should win, go for it (or a civ has turned hostile and your earlier OB deal is about to expire and you are not ready to DoW them just quite yet, even though you have not maximized your tourism.