[Deity] Fredrich

[krikav]

Thanks @cseanny , although I can't take credit neither for for Georges lack of metal, nor for the nice advices and pointers I have recieved so far.
Securing both MoM and GLib was far from certain when the AIs had calendar for ages and Justinian had both litterature and marble for alot of turns.
And Washington (the city) is an absolute beast.
If only that nasty barb galley hadn't come along and stunted Cologne for a thousand years, and if only Pericles wouldn't have stolen ToAR which George was building for me in Boston...

I'm at T125 now, and I have done things abit differently from the play you lay out. Will play this on up untill your date T143/660AD and see what I'm lacking and see what I can learn.
Do you have a save to share from 660AD?
I usually have big problems getting the balance of things right, and here one has to balance unit building with GPerson generation.
I'm taking a hit in GPerson generation in my game now, as I'm building taj in Washington, it had so many base hammers that I thought it would be justifed as I'll get the Taj GA earlier. It also gives the lesser cities some breathing space to get their GMerchants out.

I'm going for GMerchants in Cologne, Munich and Frankfurt.
Hamburg got the task of finishing HE.
The capital is building a University.

If you did delay the GA that long, did you swap civics at T116?
Now in hindsight, I think that swapping for burocracy the turn CS was in would have been the best way to go.

 

[krikav]

Oh... I have quite alot to write up now, had a very eventful turnset.

I only have 30 cuirs at 660AD, I probably misplayed my GPPs as usual, because my first Gmerch is standing in Athens this turn, next turn I can upgrade 6 more elephants and 4 horsearchers (the only ones I have left).

Spoiler :

 

[cseanny]

@krikav 20 cities!! I played til 660Ad. Research is 520bpt and......................

I didn't keep the original save so I tried to duplicate my original game, but many random events, such as wars, trades, and great people were a bit different. I've already finished banking this time and will be the 1st to economics too, and if the next gperson is a GS, I'll hit Calvary before 1000Ad me thinks. I do have almost 40 Cuirs this time though, and they are already on the border and ready to go. In 2 turns it will be +5 cities for sure. I could have upgraded even more units, or for that matter, whipped A LOT more. In the end I decided to get the correct number of units to roll over Giggles, at which point the GM from Economics and conquest gold will enable many many upgraded Cavs very soon. I'll stay in perpetual whip from that point on.

cheers.

 

[krikav]

@cseanny Yes, I got trigger happy and declared Gilgamesh prematurely, his entire SOD was up in the western end and I would have a few turns of fighting, so I went on with the first 6+ cuirs backed up by a few knights and some HAs.
I bribed Gilgamesh against Pericles first, so that I would not face him alone if things went downhill.
Took a few uneccesery losses, but the push went ok. So I have splitted his empire in half and gotten a ceasefire.
But I'll go on and write a regular update soon with more details.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T116-T134 :

T116
Gilgamesh is going for CS, so I sell it to him for 130g, and that he changes civics to HR (his favourite civic).
Since Pericles is now the only one lacking CS, i trade it for Theology with him.

It's abit dangerous trading too much, as you can be cut of from futher trades. But I think I will manage. I will utilize theocracy abit later on, and theology also gives me a bonus toward paper which I'll tech next.

T117 and T118 I sell litterature to Gilgamesh and Pericles for chump change. Only Wang lacking it now. I do this to increase chance for a future music trade.

Lovely failgold... And the GSci for the education bulb arrives.

I could settle the island this turn, since George was so kind and roaded the hill for me.

The southern island will be settled next turn. Just in time too it seems, gilgamesh galley would unload next turn if its a settler in it.

T122 I also do a series of map-trades.
First I sell my current map to everyone, then I trade my map for DeGaulles map + some gold.
Then I sell the total map again when money is available.

The shape and land balance of the other continent is perfecly ok, I don't have to fear a crazy runaway much I think.

T125 I suddenly lose my resource trades with DeGauelle, but I can renegotiate them right away. My open borders is gone though, this hurts alot.
I resort to gifting Wang litterature to get him to causcious so that I can open traderoutes with him, even though I get some diplo-hits.

Liberalism is in, so I do a bunch of trades. Phillosophy+compas to Gilgamesh for machinery and that he goes into pacifism.
Compas to Justinian for 20g to get him less annoyed about me (only got +2, did not work)
Philosophy to pericles just to have him go into caste-system, so that he won't go into burocracy for at least 5 more turns. He was the last one lacking philosophy (very un-greek of him!).
This is the tech situation after that.

T129 I also trade paper+compas for feudalism with wang. Now DeGauell is really starting to dislike me.


Last turn of the golden age, Taj is still 6-8 turns away (Building in washington). Hoping for a GSci now for academy.
Going into slavery+theocracy to build units, and to whip a tiny bit.

The next turn, I get a 20% odds engineer. I then trade Nationalism for engineering with pericles to get that engineer down to hamburg in a hurry.

T131 I rush Taj down in Hamburg, 400 or so failgold up in washington.

As soon as I can, I swap into pacifism, now I'm starving down quite a few cities for GMerchants, I let washington build elephants to slow it down GPP wise. Probably not good...

Tech situation:
I'm getting awful close to cuirs now, and my prefered target Gilgamesh is still lacking engineering. This entices me.

I trade nationalism for guilds with Gilgamesh, and put him into caste-system. If I attack him, I don't want him being able to whip units. I also want to get a few knights out.
Waiting for the GMerchants and letting them go all the way to Athens is starting to look quite unreasonable.

Not at all bad.

Cont...

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T135-T143 :

No Gilga, I can't let you have that.

Gilgamesh has his entire stack of death up in Antioch, makes sense since Wang is his worst enemy. But it's a long way from his soft core when he is lacking engineering...

I gladly pay. I'm taking a risk attacking him sooner than I'm really ready, and I don't want to face him alone. There is also a good chance that he and Pericles will trade a few units, making my task easier.

I smash his desert city, and due to culture pressure, elephants can join in on the fun at turn 0 as well. Two curs are used as can openers.
HAs steal a few workers that are available, to gain some success against him and open the possibility for ceasefire.
I would rather have burned the city Shuruppak, it doesn't have a single building. But I really need that tile for my cuirs and knights to reach that hill, to be able to hit Uruk next turn.

The merchant need to get to Athens, nevermind the fighting!
The war causes a chain reaction. I think Pericles bribed wang against gilgamesh. And Gilgamesh in turn bribed DeGauelle on me.

Soon home safe!
This turn I trade Guilds for drama and 290g with Wang. I'm totally cut of from all happines trades and I have 6+ unhappy citiesns in some cities. I need the culture slider.

A few more turns, and I also capture Eridu and two cities south. After that I'm able to get a ceasefire.
Lost two elephants, 7 cuirs and two knights I think. Lost a few 90%+ fights.

Have not yet seen Gilgamesh stack, and he has reached gunpowder now. Will move my army westwards and be ready to stab either Gilgamesh or Pericles depending on what seems most profitable.

 

[krikav]

Thanks, cseanny, for taking the time to illustrate your point properly ! You're quite the adept at those heavily gpp-focused strategies.

Yes, I think this is amazing.
I feel quite clumsy as I go along what I ackomplish might work somewhat, but it's not pretty and not really planned and executed with nearly the same accuracy.

Will do a T143 situation report, and then I'll dive into details of your saves @cseanny .

 

[krikav]

T143 situation:

Spoiler :

Taking inspiration from @cseanny I'm thinking that it could be wise to go banking -> economics, I do have good chances getting there before either justinian and degualle.

Gmerch will perform trade mission next turn, yielding 1700g. The upgrades I plan to do cost me 1350, if I delay some of them I can ensure teching for a while.

Next GPerson from here. I was quite close to another GMerch, but I was eager to start the war, and had to continue running whatever specialists I had.
This one paired with... (next screenshot)

The one I can get here very quickly, makes for the next golden age.

Current civics. Have whipped the last cuirs. Some at 17 hammers or so I have simply abandoned. Now I want my cities to grow again. The current army I have is likely enough to win this continent.
I'm in vassalage too, I did this because I was planning on going 0% research, and I have not yet had time to build a market (or any gold multiplier) in the capital, so the utility of burocracy seemed deminished.

Want to go bur+caste now. Religion I'm more uncertain about... I could go for a non-religious theocracy to hope get Justinian on friendly terms, and use his land as a launchpad on the other continent.
But free religion is also an option to keep wang more happy, or possibly befriend DeGauelle again.

Or I could simply go for pacifism, even though it doesn't do me that much good.

I would like to get out a GPerson from Atlanta though, it has good food with it's banana and multiple farms, and it's not that far behind in GPP.

Will heal up and upgrade in Eridu and Uruk, then I think it's best to move west and watch for opportunities either to finish of Gilgamesh southern cities, or go for Pericles wonders. I do want police-state for the next unit production phase.

I want to do a 2pop whip in new-york rather than a 3pop, so I'm waiting one more turn.
Whipping some galleys on the island, because it has not that much better things to do. It's a christian island.
Cities there are equipped with granary, lighthouse and courthouse.

Stables in Berlin, Hamburg and Washington.

There is something to be said about going for Gilgamesh nothern part first, as Antioch could whip more galleys. It's also the single buddhist city on my continent, and could be used to charm Justinian.

What would be wise to do? What moronic mistakes have I done and not realized? Any good calls I made?

Where would be strategic to hit next and why?
Techpath banking->economics and then toward rifling?

Will not be able to run the next GA and change civics until T145.
Would be kind of cool if I could make a quick push for Corinth before that for pyramids, and reach banking.
With my own overseas islands I would deny the other continent quite abit of commerce with mercanlism without hurting myself too much.

 

[krikav]

I have 30 cuirs alive T143, 9 more can come from upgrades T144 turn, 8 are whipped and will join the army, and I won't let heroic do anything else but produce cuirs, and it produces about 0.7-0.8 per turn.
I probably overbuilt already.

The only war I'm in right now is with DeGauelle, and it's a pity because he was the one who had dye, gems and spices for trade.
It's only the three massive cities (Berlin, Hamburg and Washington) that has happines problems right now, and getting representation would solve that problem. That or I could do some reshuffling with MPs.
I had 30% culture for 2-3 turns, but now it's at 10% and I won't be doing that long either.

Very good point about not capturing ToAR before I have done my trade missions!
I have yet to see Gilgamesh stack, I think I'll spend the next two turns scouting, possibly promoting a sentry guy so I can see into Lagash. But finishing the north first could be best, that would ensure the canal toward the other island sooner, it would keep trade routes open when at war with gilgamesh, and it's gilgamesh strongest production centers too.
Lagash is his third city though... so high culture and it's on a hill and if he has his entire SOD there, so easy pickings in the south first could be prudent. Scouting will tell.

Snagging corinth and pyramids and getting a quick ceasefire would be awesome!

Regarding communism, that would be very nice, but I think I can manage somewhat with just the org courthouses, they are often already in place in AI cities, and if they are not a 2pop whip or 2 forests builds them quickly.
Justinian has divine right and marble, and if he builds the verseies, that could be a prioritized target. Could just as easily be built by pericles though...

 

[cseanny]

Giggles ended up having HUGE amount of units in my game (no long early war like in your game). I was surprised to see 2 different stacks of around 15-18 consisting of Knights/Elephants. I actually had to sue for peace after taking 3 cities and then finish him off after I reached Cavalry (1050Ad). I did finish off the continent at 1300Ad from mass whipping of Cavs.

Finished Communism late 1200's from Capitulation, traded for Corporations from a Vassal, and then onto AL (not that it's needed). I've got around 24 Cav left and with SP can get around 15 more in 3ts when needed. Research is over 1000bpt and I still have 7 cities in revolt! Cav/Galleon FTW (however I'm not finishing ^).
https://ibb.co/kMt6qwY

@krikav Thanks for the game and that KILLER 25Ad save . cheers.

 

[krikav]

Giggles ended up having HUGE amount of units in my game (no long early war like in your game). I was surprised to see 2 different stacks of around 15-18 consisting of Knights/Elephants. I actually had to sue for peace after taking 3 cities and then finish him off after I reached Cavalry (1050Ad). I did finish off the continent at 1300Ad from mass whipping of Cavs.
Finished Communism late 1200's from Capitulation, traded for Corporations from a Vassal, and then onto AL (not that it's needed). I've got around 24 Cav left and with SP can get around 15 more in 3ts when needed. Research is over 1000bpt and I still have 7 cities in revolt! Cav/Galleon FTW (however I'm not finishing ^).
https://ibb.co/kMt6qwY
@krikav Thanks for the game and that KILLER 25Ad save . cheers.

Yes, his SOD was kind of intimidating already at T135 when I spotted it up in Antioch, 20 units (10 of them HA's and a pair of chariots) and 14 catapults. When I started attacking knights where starting to pop up here and there too. It could have been that my move to attack that soon was the best window of opportunity even though it turned out quite messy.

I utilize Galleons for speedy warfare with rifles/cannons quite often (my weapon of choice really, have just recently started exploring the cuirs line) and there I admire the galleon greatly since it gives the 1-movers so much flexibility.
What technique are you using with Galleons+Cavalery?

I intend to finish the game, but I also posted a NC game and I need to create some activity there too, so I'll likely put this on pause for a little bit. (If I can, so exciting!)

 

[krikav]

If he'll talk, you can try and buy peace with a tech, then re-open borders. He DoWed you, so relations shouldn't be that bad.
Something worthless, like Gunpowder or Nationalism. I'm not sure how it works but it's perhaps cheaper to make peace before you DoW somebody again.
You won't ever need to kill De Gaulle, him being the furthest of all. Makes him a good trading partner.

No, he won't talk yet. And due to that AP "stop trading with the infidels" I have had closed borders with him for a eternity. I had to resort to trying ot please wang+justinian to have some overseas trades, and relationships with DeGauelle have gotten ever more frosty due to "traded with our worst enemy".
I started with him intended to be my long term ally and trading partner, but things doesn't seem to have turned out that way.

I'm considering him to be the first best target on the other continent, he is most of a threat I think, and Wang is protective.
I also thing it's best to keep Justinian sort of happy, because if I get into war with him, I would have to ferry units inside his culture in shabby galleys. Reinforcing could prove problematic if he shows up with a stack of 10 caravels. >_<
But that other continent is still a long time off, alot of work to be done at home first.

 

[cseanny]

What technique are you using with Galleons+Cavalery?

Honestly, I don't really know!! I don't typically play out most games, and truth be told, I hate galleon wars because I find them tedious. I'm a big fan of Pangaea, Pangaea, and of course, lets not forget, PANGAEA . What would be your suggestion for the quickest Cuir/Galleon war?

More than likely I'll keep playing your 25Ad save over and over again (I'm a weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee bit ocd heh!), in an attempt to streamline and finesse my initial build orders. That's where you really learn new tricks and ideas, which of course, always transfer to new games. Besides, it's a lot more fun to really hammer and nail down a solid build than it is to just keep randomly playing start after start.

In your game, if you want to go for a fun twist you can always beeline NUKES!! Correct me if I'm wrong but each detonation is automatically 10 War success. Obviously you're in a commanding position, but if you're lazy (galleons), or for those who are having a harder time closing out close, higher difficulty games, NUKES make the comeback real ;D.

 

[krikav]

Two big difference between your aproach and mine, is that I pulled a GA as soon as the GPerson arived, and I also went lib->nationalism.
If you are trying out multiple ways forward, you can always try that path too.

And really, it seems like one could really reach for something in the tech tree here if one focuses on teching 100% from 25AD, such as lib->rifling or lib->steel. The AIs didn't have paper when I got lib.

Nukes are always a nice fallback plan. I played a game recently (also Fredrich, posted in Lains thread) where Isabella got totally out of control. I managed to grab the empires of two other AIs, but then I had my empire on 3 multiple fronts around her gigantic empire. And not even nukes could solve that cunundrum (at least not easily, i only tried it out once). The fronts where simply too wide.

 

[sampsa]

Did you do any math concerning academy vs bulb? For me, it's intuitively hard to believe academy this late with a big empire would beat bulbing PP.

 

[krikav]

I'm up at T151 now, I still haven't gotten around to building that academy. It was when I got the 20% odds GEng that I was planning for the academy.
Getting a GSci in 3 turns now, and that one will probably finally build the academy. Got PP in a trade and keeping him for the 3GPeople GA is probably worse than doing the academy.

Spoiler :

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T144-T151 :

Did the trade mission, and upgraded a few select units, but mostly planned on teching toward economics with the cash.

Gilgamesh revealed his stack, I was hoping he would go toward Pericles and start to trade away units.

Gilgamesh dissapointed and instead turned to the south, no idea what he was planning. But then I realized what a golden opportunity this was.

2 cuirs and 2 elephants for his stack.

I then traded gunpowder+235g for optics+banking. Banking to start teching toward economics and later rifling. Optics I wanted to whip a pair of caravels on my eastcoast to send east to get circumnavigation to speed up the transit of my galleys.

Gilgamesh south was a scattered mess that was easy to roll over, although I did so in a chaotic fashion since my cuirs where also kind of scattered.

The last resistance he put up was at Lagash, but I was extremly lucky and won about 5 fights at 70% odds.
(I did get to pay later, losing 3-5 fights at 95+ odds, mopping up Ur and Antioch.)

T149 Justinian demands MT, I oblige. Perhaps abit stupid, but I really love to play diplomacy safe...
T149 I can also make peace with DeGauelle, but I have to pay up the astounding ammount of 10g to get that peace treaty.
I now start my 2GPerson GA, swapping to burocracy, caste, merc, pacifism.
I'm still running a 10-20% culture slider throughout most of the fight with gilgamesh, I'm lacking alot of military police in my cities.


That last maceman in Ur got killed by the very last Cuirasser I had in range, an injured one winning at 60% odds. Very nice to win that fight and not having to wait yet another turn.

I want to get to rifling now, I'm buying all their maps every second turn or so too, want to make sure I get the movement bonus for my boats.

Now I'm spreading out military police, moving a few unupgraded horse archers back, cuirs are concentrating in the middle of Gilgamesh former heartland, to keep away unhappines. Uruk is starving down at 17 artists to bring culture on surrounding land. This will also be one of the GPersons that I need for the next GA. Eridu might produce another one, but Atlanta is also getting closer to finishing it's GMerch.

I'm hoping that things line up decently, so that my cuirs soon will be healed up enough and have performed whatever police-duties they need, so that they can roll over Pericles land, at roughly the same pace as the galleys are rounding the landmass at Ur and Antioch and then I can upgrade to cavalery in Sparta/Athens and go on to the other continent.

DeGauelle is the likely target, as he is hated by everyone, still lacking gunpowder and seem to be falling behind in tech.

 

[krikav]

T152-T178
Will add comments tomorrow, but things went splendid!

Spoiler :

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T152-T166 :

My cuirs where almost in position T154, and this was Pericles main stack. His cities where stocked with alot of longbows and often pairs of pikes though.

I had gunpowder, education and MT to trade with Pericles, I checked so that he had not started teching gunpowder by looking aproximatly how much he would give me for it, then I did this trade.
It's nice to start a war against someone who is in anarchy.

I took kind of heavy causalties against his cities, longbows on hills (Corinth and Sparta) with that ammount of culture are nasty. I also had to stop and heal for some turns, had 39 cuirs somewhere when I started the war, but about 9 of them where locked up as military police half the empire away.

Corinth falls. I could probably have swapped civics here, but I was too carried away with the war, as often happends.

Here Athens falls, the same turn that I get rifling, and the same turn that my pre-built galleys that where upgraded to galleons in Antioch arrives. Especially proud of this planning.
Had to resort to a turn or two of 100% culture here, as I wanted to move all available cuirs westward, stray warriors, chariots etc from my old core empire had to move west to take posts in especially vunerable cities in Gilgamesh old empire.

The next turn, Spara falls and the Greek empire is no more. 29gpt from the Hindu Shrine.
Areteas the third spawns in Eridu just in time to keep the buzz of a GA rolling.

That GMerchant reminded me that I had to swap civics, that and the fact that my research is bascially done now.
Here I stayed in caste-system, because I want to get to friendly terms with Wang, to stir up some trouble on their continent.
Antioch is the only buddhist city I have, but thats enough to establish it as my state religion. The reason I stay in theocracy is to possibly get justinian to friendly to get him into action too. (He requires friendly to be bribed, where wang only needs pleased.

Here I'm hunting those +2 "we appreciate the years you have supplied us with resources" in a hurry. his empire is small and about 3-4 of his 8 cities won't benefit from these resources anyway.

Go kill DeGauelles and your own units please Wang!

I think that DeGauelle was plotting against Justinian (or me?), because after the war bribe, he started moving his SoD toward Seoul.

Justinian stubbornly stayed at pleased, even though I got the +2 from resources. Shared religion and favourite civic refused to go up. (how many turns between these increments?)

I delayed my attack on DeGauelle for 2-3 turns, hoping that he would suicide his stack against Seoul, but nothing happend, eventually I lost my patience and killed his stack and took Lyons and Sakae (in which he had his navy of 6-8 galleons). That and one turn of movement toward Paris was enough to make him capitulate.

cont...

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T166-T178 :

I reach chemistry, and start to whip frigates on the island, the intent was to bombard justinian and wangs coastal cities.

I promptly gift back DeGauelles cities to get cultural acces to Wangs territory.
I also give whatever techs I can, and give him all spare resources I have. There are benefits of joining the German empire!

Whipping like a madman, only Hamburg with it's heroic epic is left untouched. 9 cavalery lost so far.

Biggest problem is shipping all units over the strait. Every second pass the boats do, they can loaded with cavalery riding in the boats, then they can be released in Justinians cities for free the next turn.
All cavalery is just running foward now, noone is allowed to stop and heal.

Justinian only had that Northern city and Constantinople left, but still refused to capitulate. Only when Constantinople had fallen he was willing to give up. But I still had cavalery able to move...

22 cavalery lost on wang+justinian.

I do not often pay much attention to the score, I had a old game of NC197 with Gilgamesh that I played on immoral that where my highest yet, at around 300k or so. No other game have ever been close to surpassing that, so this was very nice.