Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by Phyacis, Feb 11, 2006.
one theater then global?
how can u do that?
I agree that using many civs is part of why this works. If you give the AIs the normal amount of room, they'll easily run away from you on tech. Once this happens, you can't trade with them any more, and you are toast.
Indeed. Forcing 18 civs on a small pangea map is like telling them :
"Ok guys, i'm stuck at one city, but basically so are you, because you've got no space for more. However i get the OCC advantage of cranking out all the national wonders in my capital, and no N buildings requirements, while you don't!"
Strategy per opening post has now been revised in light of testing and observations based on initial feedback – thank you to those who posted above!
Interesting, but this strategy seems to be HEAVILY predicated on joining up with the strongest AI civ via a Permanent Alliance. Once you are sharing research and production with a Deity AI civ, you're really not playing "Deity" or playing a One City Challenge.
It's kind of like defeating Deity AI civs in war with City Elimination turned on. Sure, you can do it, since the AI isn't programmed to understand City Elim rules, and you'll be beating "Deity", but it kind of misses the point, doesn't it? Anyway, I hope you're having fun, it does look like something neat to try. Carry on.
combined into opening post
To win a conquest victory, you don't need to keep any city. If you feel like you can do it, sure go ahead.
Fewer civs may be easier in the early game, but it will be harder later on, because bigger civs will make it harder to keep up in tech. Keep on playing and i expect that you'll change your mind pretty soon.
This is really pretty cool. Anyone trying this is bound to improve their normal game play quite a bit. It really makes you focus on what is important. I'm going to try it again soon.
Try going for a space race win on that one. OCC deity space race wins have been rather difficult on nonisland maps due to the modern age AI tech pace and are far from guaranteed.
What speed are you using?
Strategy per opening post has now been revised in light of this testing and observations based on above feedback - thank you
I like this kinds of game
My first attempt ended peered with egypt and win by score (while hammering toku)
Things to notice :
- city site is extremely important, for an example, if you can't FoodSupport 2 GS when your library is buidt, your site is bad
- sea tiles and sea ressources are great, by the way it means you will have to build fishboat and avoid war with coastal sea neiborghs.
- sometime you can avoid war completely until late game, you absolutly don't want that as it means no heroic epic and no west point
- best time for war is beginning turns, by the way, you have to decide if you will make your worker before or after your "levelup" war and don't go to war if he's outside of course ^^
- avoid losing your warrior stupidly to bears/barb, you absolutly need to contact as many civs as possible when you hit alphabet. Another option would be to garrison him after fews turns of exploration to allow city size 4 before first archer can come out, then make a scout after the first archer then archer after the scout or boat if mocty/toku/alex isn't at sight and you have coast.
Question to the specialist phyacis :
1. how do you manage to make early levelup war, pump a worker to chop outside cross and continue to produce gp points, defenses and building, scout, ect ? I mean that i usualy have limited options as time is ticking and keeping up in tech is easily first but become harder and harder
2. Regarding techs, after alphabet, do you beeline drama or monarchy ? not realy a question as i think it's better to go drama and get monarchy by trade. Anyway things tend to be harder latter.
I explain, i need to get drama in around same time as my second GS (first was for academy) so i can GS rush philo then i make some trade to get at least monarchy. Then i try to make use of hereditary rule so i haven't specialist anymore until i reach a decent pop, i max growth and prod to increase pop and make your missing building (theatre, globe theatre, granary, walls, lighthouse, worker if needed, missing archer/longbow if needed)
Consequence ? my science drop to almost nothing, consequence ? i lose tech lead quickly (at least i try to get feudalism by trade even if it's hard because i can't withstand macemens with archers)
So i wonder how you can honestly keep up tech lead against AI at that point.
I tried playing this last night. I don't think I've ever had so much fun getting my butt kicked in a long time!
First off, I'm playing as Monty ... And I have a few big problems. One is getting a good city spot. Seems like I can never get the right combination of extra food squares, hill to start on, and grassland forest squares. My best games have been when I start on the coast and have access to crab. The only problem with the coast squares is that it's really easy for a neighboring countries to declare war on you and park their boats outside your cities, rendering all those tiles useless. I've had a hard time supporting more than one scientist or getting a big city with my food shortages.
Another problem is that I'm getting killed in the tech race. With no commerce, how do you generate the science needed to research something first? It's taking me something like 100+ turns to reasearch techs past alphabet. By the time I finally get a tech, most of the other guys already have it, and I'm trading the bottom feeders the tech for 100gp or something, lol. I started off okay, but it wasn't long before I had riflemen marching down on my longbowmen, and no way to stop it.
The third problem is, I can't seem to get people from attacking me. Maybe I need to review the strategy. The big trouble seems to stem from people constantly asking me to go to war with them or stop trading with somebody. Seems to ramp up my -1 relation points pretty quick.
And what about religion? It kind of helps to have the +1 happiness bonus, because early on, my city tends to max out at 5 or so because of unhappy people. With the religion, I can get up to 6, but then other countries get mad at me. Which route should I go here?
I'm going to read the guide again and give it a try again tonight. After 15 minutes of restarts looking for a decent starting position, I finally got one that put me on a hill, gave me a rice field 2 blocks away (I'll probably lose that with culture later on), and two crab spots in the ocean next to me. I saved that, and will give it a go again tonight.
One final note. It seemed like 4 archers worked fine for me. I started losing money when I built my fourth, so I killed my initial warrior and stuck with the four. They pretty much kept me alive until the middle ages. One archer wound up with 2 Mountain promotions, 3 city defender promotes, and 3 strength promotes. It may of even been more. I upgraded him to a longbowman (which basically kills your chance of another promotion) and he was able to fend off just about anything until a large group of grenaiders and riflemen came.
I tried this strat on Noble and got my butt stomped into the ground. You we're right about everyone attacking but I didn't think you meant literally.
I had about 20 archers some with Double hills defense and double city defense, not to mention I built on a hill and had walls. All in all it said my city defense was at 105%, which came in handy when every single one of the civs attacked. They attacked me around 55Ad and I lasted until 1865 or so before they killed my last archer. Every single turn my city was attacked by at least 10-15 units. Everything from Axemen to Macemen, War Elephants to Catapults, finally when the enemy started discovering gunpowder and started sending wave upon wave of rifleman and grenadier at me I knew I was finished.
They effectivly had me pinned inside my city with no resources and unable to build anything but an archer. It was by far the worst round of Civ I have EVER played. But of course I've only known about Civ4 for about 2 months so, not much to be expected from me. I guess I suck pretty bad.
You list good points - I agree with your observations. Regarding questions:
I wait until feudalism before making first worker. Use period from 4000bc-1AD for level-up wars, then try to keep peace from 1AD to 1500 to allow focus on buildings/wonders, while relying on longbow to avoid war during this time. Usually around 1500 (after red cross ideally) start switching to military production
After alphabet, beeline for drama as it's easy to trade. If you beeline monarchy everyone will already have it, so no trade value. Usually I find the second GS (philo) rush can obtain most missing techs. But timing is critical, you need the GS as early as possible - Philosophy before anyone else has it is very valuable, whereas 5 turns later it may be worthless. Try to use philosophical leader if you dont already - makes a big difference in this aspect. Same with pacifism - use when possible (try to always use pacifism when caste system is being used, sometimes too dangerous to have one religion too long though, so need to switch religions or use no-state often to avoid war)
Currency helps a lot to get more tech trades (eg sell drama to 4 civs for 50-200 gold each, in order to trade drama+700 gold for feudalism with civ #5 - some techs are critical milestones (feudalism) so its worth taking a loss to ensure you get them early, and drama is safe to give to AI anytime. You're right though, it's a cycle of research/production/research where you fall behind on tech, then catch up, then fall behind.. it's very hard to judge where you are versus AI at any given time due to this (subjective factor of GP investment for example)
I've now expanded the strategy (see edited opening post) and the new version will help a lot I think. It covers the problem of everyone making demands on you for example, and goes into a lot more detail on the early build and research order. It also answers your religion question. Let me know if new questions are raised - it's easy to take things for granted as 'obvious' when writing a strategy, and the initial feedback helped a lot in identifying the 'unobvious' parts.
If you're getting killed on tech, the first things to look at:
1. You're playing as Monty! - any philosophical leader will be better at research
2. Do you have the max number of scientist specialists running whenever possible? (your later production is huge compared to initial production, you can catch up on buildings easily later, so focus on tech and build the minimum possible to just survive meanwhile)
3. Are you looking for trades each turn? including trades for gold you can use to top up other trades? Common advice is to check for trades each time you get a new tech, but thats not nearly often enough on diety. Someone with nothing to offer one turn may have 2 key techs you want 2 turns later.
4. Are you using the politics to full advantage? If you dont get at least one or two techs as free gifts each game then you need to work on your diplomatic approach (see edited opening post)
OCC is probably 2 levels harder than a normal game until you learn the quirks of it. Noble is high enough to beat you up pretty bad to begin with. We've probably all been there and done that Stick with it, and it becomes a lot more friendly
few more points :
globe theatre : i think you shoudn't emphasis on that one too early, certainly not immediately after discovering drama. Why ? simple enough, with hereditary rule and maybe 5 to 8 defender (at least 6 in most case) you will have at worst a 10 pop max happyness level. which require 28 food for maintenance when you hit that value and 297 food surplus (half that with granary) to go from 4 to 10 pop, sometime more surplus needed due to health ressource limit.
Plus, you can't even hope get that pop with only unimproved tiles in any reasonable time so you willneed to pump out a worker (wich delay growth and is useless at war)
More, even taking more time to get to 10 with unimproved tiles worked you will not be able to switch to mass scientists with those tiles.
To calculate how many scientist (and/or pure miners with no food) you can support it's quite simple, the core city provide one, and each tile that give more than 2 food provide 1/2 one by each food above 2.
It's one main reason that make coastal city site with seafood extremely powerfull in that time (at the cost of workboat wich could render your early war difficult due to missing/delayed archer)
2. diplomatics : one thing important to notice, not matter how many bad relations a specific AI can have with others AI, it look like he have only ONE worst ennemy. So if your PA target get's annoyed with 2 others guys but only one of them is tagged worst ennemy, you can still trade with the other one without relation hit with your wannabe-PA-mate.
One other thing : religion can be your worst ennemy in this game ok ! but it could be your best friend. Relationnal bonuses with strong enough civ can make war-bribe available without having to pre bribe the guy.
More, you need to have a state religion to make use of religion civics (organized relig while building is great and pacifism during science burst is even greater)
So when switch to religion ? quite simple if a religion (almost always budh or hindu) spread among massive amount of AI then chances that it will spread to you are great, so you can switch to that one and grab the relationnal benefits ^^
Problem for your level up war ? no prob there is always some stupid moron dump enough to have another religion (generaly one he found), if it's mocty it is even funnier
(quote about monolithic relifion situation : to make levelup war, your target must have access to your terrritory, if he's too far away, in most case he will not be able to attack you due to all other AI closed border regarding him)
This is great fun. I tried again last night. Once with 7 civs, once with 18. I was solid up until 200Ad. Yeah, not too far into it I know. I was doing OK on tech research, but I am not as good a CIV trader as I am a CIV III trader, ie I failed to trade for monarchy and had to self research it. I ended up dying before longbows because I only had 5-6 archers when I got attacked and they couldnt outlast all the attackers.
I need to go back and read again and then concentrate on diplomacy. I'm not sure what to say when someone asks me to join a war and I'm not sure if I should get open borders with everyone. etc.
Edit: I used epic speed, that's the one you use right Phyacis?
monarchy you usualy get it by trading drama
if you 're very lucky with trades, you can cash trade feudalism for drama plus mucha gold too. Otherwise you get it by trading GSrushed philo
Regarding going at war, beetween writing and aplphabet you must begin to get a good point of vie regarding relations beetween AI and then you should have some good hint about your future PA-mate wich is the only one you will agree to help in war.
About open border, simple enough, agree all, even more, propose it to anyone (except that f**in loosy toku) when you hit writing. Only consider refusing open border if there is already big religion tension beetween AI (especialy if there is one future looser having its own religion instead of sharing the monopolistic one, it's often gandhi or isa)
Is there anyway to advance the spread of religion to your city? I switched over to Saldy and am doing a little better in the tech race (although, still lagging behind a bit)
My biggest problem now are:
1) Getting a religion in the first place. This might have something to do with holy cities being too far away from me. But that's key though. If you want your PA prospect to be far away, they are likely going to have a different religion than the one you wind up with. If that's the case, how do you get the needed religion into your borders? I think I would need to be the same to pull off a DP (not that I've gotten that far yet).
2) What's the easiest way to get past that Population 4 cap in the early game? I would imagine that's Monarchy, but for some reason, Civs don't like trading me for it. I tend to get the "You are getting too powerful" note ... and then by the time they are willing to offer it, they've researched the tech I'm trying to trade them. Am I trading techs in the wrong order? I usually try to get all the cheaper ones first (since I'm trading with weaker Civs first), and then work my way up to the more expensive ones. Maybe I should be trying to get the most expensive techs first, and work my way down? I always thought the cheaper would be better, as it would satisfy more pre-reqs for other things.
3) People kicking my butt in wars around AD 200. I've tried keeping my neighbors happy, but they still want to go after me even when our relations are decent. Part of the problem might be that I only have an army of maybe 5-6 archers/longbowman because of cost. Other problem might be that I share a border with 5 other civs: Persia, China (Mao), Mongols (Genghis), India, and Greece. Even France and Japan have tried taking me out. Whoever it is, they roll up a stack of catapults, elephants and crossbowman. The catapults work me down to nothing, and the crossbowmen and elephants eventually eat me up. Do I have "f' me" written on my forehead or something?
Excl - Your game sounds exactly like what happened to me last time. I got caght in a war around 200AD with 5-6 archers when I should have had 6-10 archers. Same for the tech thing. I traded drama up from the bottom and could not end up with monarchy. Next time I'll try trading for monarchy straight away.
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