Deity - Post Patch Example

[RD-BH]

Note growth:
... T5 - Spain settles Barcelona in middle of desert on my border
... T20 - Spain pulls back troops THEN DoWs me (Rome) ???
... T22 - Barcelona is pop 4; Spain: food/turn > 22
... T25 - Domination LOSS
... T25 - I had:
... ... 2x scouts and 3x Warriors
... ... 4x techs; Spain had 7; Ottomans had 7
... ... ... CS(Brussels) had 10 (outteching everyone)
... ... Rome had pop 3; Spain had 10; Ottomans had 10; Brussels had 3

So far, this has been typical of my post patch Deity games.
The atypical were games abandoned T100..150 (too far behind).
Archery first was essential to all atypical games.
Food starts help but still need production.
Settling capitol on a luxury and beelining associated tech might buy one additional unit.
This leaves one strategy for victory: map regeneration.

 

[snarzberry]

Ouch that hurts. Heh, maybe you're being a little too cynical about it? You may have been a little unluckier than the expected rate when it comes to early neighbour attacks. If you're playing deity you have to take your medicine sometimes.

If you get dog-piled on turn 25 then it's going to be a tough game to win, that's for sure, but the odds of this happening are relatively low. What kind of start you roll obviously affects your chances of winning, but a good start is no guarantee - you'll still have to play well, and on a poor start you may even win if you play brilliantly. I do agree, however, with the idea that there is probably some proportion of deity starts that are unwinnable. I'm okay with that.

I've had 2 standard everything wins on deity since the patch out of about a dozen starts. One was just a regular starting location with the mongols. I expanded through initial conquest and was at war with someone or other for almost the entire game. The other was one of those insanely lucky starts you mentioned as babylon, in that game I didn't take a single enemy city and I was at peace for almost the whole time due to relative isolation.

They were both fun games, don't abandon all hope.

 

[RD-BH]

Cynical was not my intent.

These were Deity/Standard size/Standard Pace/Continents.
I was playing through different starts on each map to check differences
... between prepatch and postpatch starts.

What caught my attention was early DoWs nearly doubled occurrences.
... From casual play, I thought they had decreased.
This restricts further an already diminished set of viable opening tech paths on deity.

I have no complaint about deity being hard/challenging.
I do have concerns that it is linear.
I would like deity to be a series of interesting choices AND hard/challenging.

For now, I'll reduce level until I find the FUN 8) factor again.

[edit]
... After review of my last few posts,
... ... They read/sound overly negative.
... ... Maybe I'm sleep deprived?

 

[snarzberry]

I know what you're saying, your options are severely limited compared to lower levels . I wasn't suggesting the whole post was cynical, just your assessment that there is one way to win - reroll.

Of course under correct circumstances there are a number of possible ways to victory. It feels like on deity your margin for error is so small that each map, if it is even at all possible, will dictate that you play a certain way. I guess this is the part that you don't like, that your hand is often forced and favourable circumstances contribute heavily to your chances of victory. I look at it like that's part of the skill of winning at the hard levels, understanding how the map situation changes what decisions you should make. I'm sure you're aware of that.

It's the same old story. They get a head start, you have to overcome it. There is usually (to me) very few viable plays and I feel compelled to go down a particular overall strategy line very often. And I, too, find this linear and it gets boring. I drop down to immortal for more enjoyable games and play deity for the challenge, especially when a new patch comes out. I wish they just kept patching every six months to provide a fresh challenge!

 

[Callonia]

Try increasing the size of map so that You'll actually have some time to build a extra warrior or two.

 

[aimlessgun]

For now, I'll reduce level until I find the FUN 8) factor again.

Difficulty level isn't the only thing you can manipulate. Well if your favorite map type is standard size and pace continents, I guess you're stuck there

So far my one deity game on huge continents w/ 16 civs seemed quite forgiving (I played a very casual, unfocused, not perfect at all game and won). I didn't get nuked in it though, which apparently was lucky.

 

[RD-BH]

... It's the same old story. They get a head start, you have to overcome it. There is usually (to me) very few viable plays and I feel compelled to go down a particular overall strategy line very often. And I, too, find this linear and it gets boring. I drop down to immortal for more enjoyable games and play deity for the challenge, especially when a new patch comes out. I wish they just kept patching every six months to provide a fresh challenge!

This is why I didn't notice the increase during casual play.
... I was already in the rut.

I agree about patching.
... It alleviates boredom.

Try increasing the size of map so that You'll actually have some time to build a extra warrior or two.

In casual play I've used a variant of this suggestion.
... I reduce AI/CS to small map settings (6/12) on standard size map.

Difficulty level isn't the only thing you can manipulate. Well if your favorite map type is standard size and pace continents, I guess you're stuck there

So far my one deity game on huge continents w/ 16 civs seemed quite forgiving (I played a very casual, unfocused, not perfect at all game and won). I didn't get nuked in it though, which apparently was lucky.

LOL, my favorite is random everything 8)
I've 5d10 (different colors) to help where Civ5 doesn't randomize.

*** Question ***
Any thoughts on AI desert city growing to pop 4 in 17 turns?
... they had 1x unimproved cow on desert
... 1x unimproved cotton on riverside desert
... 1x sheep on desert
Could AIs have global food?

The CS tech lead is obvious.
The "other" continent didn't have a human to DoW so there were no wars.
Why the local CS benefits from that is another issue.

 

[Callonia]

In casual play I've used a variant of this suggestion.
... I reduce AI/CS to small map settings (6/12) on standard size map.

*** Question ***
Any thoughts on AI desert city growing to pop 4 in 17 turns?
... they had 1x unimproved cow on desert
... 1x unimproved cotton on riverside desert
... 1x sheep on desert
Could AIs have global food?

The CS tech lead is obvious.
The "other" continent didn't have a human to DoW so there were no wars.
Why the local CS benefits from that is another issue.

Its deity, the desert could be grasslands for all we care. XD

They get cheats, so, maybe, only need like 2 food to grow a pop point.

 

[Vladesch]

An archer in your capital would probably have made a huge difference.
Do you still have a copy of the initial save?

 

[The_Quasar]

An archer in your capital would probably have made a huge difference.

agreed, it's fast becoming a standard part of opening...

Do you still have a copy of the initial save?

I would be interested to see this too.

 

[snarzberry]

agreed, it's fast becoming a standard part of opening...

I don't think you should an include an archer in your opening build unless you are under obvious threat of an early attack. For instance if Alexander is within spitting distance of you. People are pointing out these early rushes and how they can be difficult to deal with and can sometimes result in a quick loss. They stick in your mind and are easy to remember but, it seems to me at least, that they represent a definite minority of all standard standard games.

Having the ability to rush-buy an archer in a fix is a good compromise. If you're accumulating money to use on a rush bought library somewhere, or to ally a city-state, or something like that then this money can be diverted to defense in the event of an attack.

On the other hand if you always build an archer in the first 50 turns then I don't think you get the best return on those crucial early hammers, as you only really see the benefit when you are indeed early rushed which, as far as I can see, happens to infrequently for it to be worth it.

 

[bryanw1995]

The early rush happens quite often, but you're usually dead if it happens, anyway. I agree that it's best to simply research archery then make sure that you have enough to rush buy an archer if you get rushed.

BTW, @OP, if you had settled on the hills and kept your original warrior fortified next to your capital you probably would have survived the rush.

 

[Aestis25]

How many warriors did they send?? 3 warriors + a city should be enough to hold off an early rush, as long as it's not 3 civs at once coming at you.

 

[Martin Alvito]

People are pointing out these early rushes and how they can be difficult to deal with and can sometimes result in a quick loss. They stick in your mind and are easy to remember but, it seems to me at least, that they represent a definite minority of all standard standard games.

I get rushed in every single game where an AI is adjacent, without fail. The only time that I don't get rushed is when I start in a corner and have city-states rather than AIs adjacent.

This essentially divides Deity into two completely different games depending on your starting position.

 

[snarzberry]

I get rushed in every single game where an AI is adjacent, without fail. The only time that I don't get rushed is when I start in a corner and have city-states rather than AIs adjacent.

This essentially divides Deity into two completely different games depending on your starting position.

Rushed is a word thrown around a bit. There's a world of difference between being DoWed on turn 24 and on turn 54. Usually if I'm close to another civ then I'm going to want to attack them anyway as war is probably inevitable so if the 'rush' comes later like in the 50 - 60 range, then I'm happy. I'm preparing to attack them anyway, will never give them peace and will generate less warmonger hate as I don't have to DoW myself.

If we defined 'rush' more strictly as, say, being attacked before turn 40 then this is the behaviour I'm suggesting is uncommon.

 

[Randall Turner]

I've played enough games now that it's not "small sample size" anymore, Snarzberry. Last one was turn 19 for me, DOW'd by France. I've had the same experience as the OP and Martin. (Everything standard, Continents.)

The only game at those settings I wasn't rushed, I caught a break and freed a worker for one of the two nearby civs (Gandhi) and in that case, he and the other civ went to war early and left me alone. (The other civ was the Aztecs.)

If your experience is significantly different, perhaps we should be exploring the differences in our starts?

Edit: if we tend to play a certain civ, we'll also tend to have a certain set of neighbors unless we turn the start bias thingie off.

 

[Pazyryk]

agreed, it's fast becoming a standard part of opening...

It's interesting that building an initial military unit (let alone teching to an advanced military unit) is being considered now, at least at Deity. I consider this an improvement.

I remember my build queue from Fall From Heaven (and FFH modmods): scout, warrior, warrior, warrior, warrior, warrior, warrior,... (playing as builder).

 

[Martin Alvito]

If we defined 'rush' more strictly as, say, being attacked before turn 40 then this is the behaviour I'm suggesting is uncommon.

I can reliably expect at least one DoW in the teens or 20's on Quick, or in the late 20's or 30's on Standard. The only time that this does not happen is when all AIs are sufficiently distant that they will not declare.

It's because I REX. The AI sees this and its algorithms decide I'm tasty, even though I'm usually not. Archers are an inexpensive rush, and I can usually afford two in the early going after selling a luxury that I settle.

The problem is that this yields two cases: starts where you can REX and starts where you can't. Since REX is so advantageous, this just adds another very large luck factor for competitions such as the HoF.

 

[RiceAndChine]

ts not only the early DoWs, that concern me. I played around 20 games and always got DoWed upon up to turn 40 by one civ and then maybe another one or two. I therfore startet rushnig an offensive tech like Horseback or Iron (instead of writing). Since then I manage to hold two or three of them and mostly capture some city(s). What happend to me around 8 times snce then is as follows:

T34: Russia has declared war on you.
T45: Romehas declared war on you.
And then when both of them sourrond your cities (happens even if they are at opposite ends)
T51: Rome has declared war on Russia.
and they start wandering off my land and kill each other.

It's not the difficulty-level. But Civ, I thnk, should at least have this red line of common sense in the AI. Not pickng random fights simply because they can...

 

[snarzberry]

I can reliably expect at least one DoW in the teens or 20's on Quick, or in the late 20's or 30's on Standard. The only time that this does not happen is when all AIs are sufficiently distant that they will not declare.

It's because I REX. The AI sees this and its algorithms decide I'm tasty, even though I'm usually not. Archers are an inexpensive rush, and I can usually afford two in the early going after selling a luxury that I settle.

The problem is that this yields two cases: starts where you can REX and starts where you can't. Since REX is so advantageous, this just adds another very large luck factor for competitions such as the HoF.

Ah okay then, I see the reason for the discrepancy now. When playing deity I am almost always either staying small and peaceful if given a suitable isolated position or, more usually, building up for an early attack of my own. If you are settling extra cities during that phase then it's no wonder that you see more early rushing by AIs. It's a risk you assume, I guess. And not just the risk of being destroyed, which may not happen, but the risk of making enemies if that's not what you want to do. I've had more success taking cities than settling many of my own.

So it isn't standard to be rushed at the rate you report, it is probably only that common if you early Rex. My impression on standard standard is that I am attacked before turn 30 about a third of the time, and that would be erring on the high side.