Deity - Post Patch Example

[Martin Alvito]

So it isn't standard to be rushed at the rate you report, it is probably only that common if you early Rex. My impression on standard standard is that I am attacked before turn 30 about a third of the time, and that would be erring on the high side.

Settling a third city results in a DoW with virtually 100% probability in my experience. Distance is the only thing that will prevent it.

 

[bryanw1995]

My last game was a large immortal continents, and I had a turn 40 dow from arabia, followed by a turn 50 dow from suleiman. I was just finishing the GL when the arabian units showed up, and I was still in my capital with no other cities. I spent the rest of the game getting dow'd by both of them at random intervals until I finally decided to wipe them out for the insult.

 

[snarzberry]

If your experience is significantly different, perhaps we should be exploring the differences in our starts?

True. Perhaps you settle a little more aggressively in the opening than I do, as Martin says he does? I usually settle only one additional city for a strategic resource in the first 50 turns.

 

[snarzberry]

lol taking part in this thread jinxed me . Turn 23 napoleon and montezuma declare on me together and turn 25 I face this, even with an archer in the city along with my fortified warrior it is surely impossible to survive. 9 warriors and a GG, where did he come from?

 

[Tabarnak]

lol taking part in this thread jinxed me . Turn 23 napoleon and montezuma declare on me together and turn 25 I face this, even with an archer in the city along with my fortified warrior it is surely impossible to survive. 9 warriors and a GG, where did he come from?

Ouch! And you got a ''meh'' capital spot. In my last try i built 2 archers and 1 warrior before starting a library while i researched Philo. Didn't get DoWed at all for first 70 turns(in fact i was the DoWer but i failed against Babylon who built the HG and had 5 cities, still very close to a successful attack).

The scout-monument-granary(4-5 pop. production focused)-archer-archer-warrior-(library) seems to have some potential to prevents early DoW.

 

[Martin Alvito]

That city is just begging to get rolled. Three luxuries and all that open terrain; the AI's going to jump all over it, won't fail at pathing and will bury you.

If you have open terrain and Monty next door, I suspect that your only hope is to tech Archery and Masonry immediately. Oligarchy probably is also a good idea.

Tabarnak's opening sequence is more or less what I'm doing, except that I'm grabbing Collective Rule and building a Settler instead of the Granary. When I have the ruins off, I go Monument first. Satellite cities go Monument -> Library.

That rarely deters them, but I almost always win the war.

 

[RD-BH]

This screenshot is prior to loss.
I'd already killed some attackers.
There were <12 attackers in three waves.

Spoiler :

This is not typical (ie in casual play I do not play every possible opening on any given map).
I was testing different starting tech paths.
... in casual play I enjoy more peace than these tests indicate.
... I posted this because there are increased early DoWs postpatch.
... ... nearly double the amount
... This means any/all of the following:
... ... 1) negative diplo hits from tech path (same victory)
... ... 2) negative diplo hits from builds
... ... 3) stronger AI reaction to player's weak/strong military (see 6)
... ... 4) increased coveting of player resources (see 6)
... ... 5) increased AI diplo instability (moodier AI)
... ... 6) imbalance of early gameplay mechanics (excessive value/target ratio)

Here is the initial save.
View attachment AutoSave_Initial_0000 BC-4000.Civ5Save

 

[Tabarnak]

Tabarnak's opening sequence is more or less what I'm doing, except that I'm grabbing Collective Rule and building a Settler instead of the Granary.

If i'm not playing Deity i actually pre-build a settler while i wait for philo(instead of building more units) from collective rule and keep the 2nd settler until i finished the NC(if i don't build the GL) but i have built the granary almost everytime. When you build a settler under collective rule and a granary(production focused) you can shave approx. 2 turns per settler(pop4-5 city). In fact the granary pays himself in about 25 turns.

If i can't have enough money to rush buy a library in the 2nd city(which happened in the last GOTM 15), i wait for NC before settle more cities(almost simultaneously). Problem at Deity is i actually want to keep money and luxuries(for my empire growth) and use gold for warrior upgrade or emergency. Hard to make money when you have 8-9 units maintenance early on. I like to ally a cultural cs very soon too. But i begin to think to ally a military cs instead and wipe out a civ more easier or faster(deity).

A scout upgraded to archerscout can be very useful and let your capital build something else(assuming ruins enabled).

 

[Randall Turner]

True. Perhaps you settle a little more aggressively in the opening than I do, as Martin says he does? I usually settle only one additional city for a strategic resource in the first 50 turns.

It sounds like I play the same way you do, Snarz. One or two cities, usually still go for the NC.

You mentioned you jinxed yourself - I just played a number of games trying to identify the contributing factors to early DOW's, and I bumped into the opposite situation you did. I had one of the most peaceful openings I've ever encountered, and the reason for it was purely topological.

I had a great science start but a bad defensive position. I started one hex away from Marble on a plain hex, meaning I could move one hex, spawn the city on turn 1, and get the wonder bonus w/o researching masonry or building a mine. sooo, I decided to try it the other way, ie, paint as big a target on myself as possible. (Research to Philosophy, build wonders instead of archers, that sort of thing.)

My two close neighbors were China and the Mongols, who were pretty close to each other. They started declaring war immediately (first DOW on turn 18) - but against each other, not me. It's now turn 55 and they've already been to war 3 times, completely ignoring me.

This isn't a good thing, by the way. Starting topology is pure luck. Shouldn't be so chancy.

I'm going to replay this start after taking a little road trip here. (Of course I'm going to bump into a near-perfect setup when I don't really have time to play.) I also popped Pottery on turn 8 from a ruin, got a nearby Maritime city-state with a barbarian encampment next to it, just nice.

I want to post a screenshot of this start, btw. Two Gold hexes, the Marble, horses, nearby forest, some stone and cows. I don't usually post these, don't know where the screenshot files go. Help?

 

[bryanw1995]

click "go advanced" instead of submit reply, then manage attachments.

 

[snarzberry]

It sounds like I play the same way you do, Snarz. One or two cities, usually still go for the NC.

You mentioned you jinxed yourself - I just played a number of games trying to identify the contributing factors to early DOW's, and I bumped into the opposite situation you did. I had one of the most peaceful openings I've ever encountered, and the reason for it was purely topological.

I had a great science start but a bad defensive position. I started one hex away from Marble on a plain hex, meaning I could move one hex, spawn the city on turn 1, and get the wonder bonus w/o researching masonry or building a mine. sooo, I decided to try it the other way, ie, paint as big a target on myself as possible. (Research to Philosophy, build wonders instead of archers, that sort of thing.)

My two close neighbors were China and the Mongols, who were pretty close to each other. They started declaring war immediately (first DOW on turn 18) - but against each other, not me. It's now turn 55 and they've already been to war 3 times, completely ignoring me.

This isn't a good thing, by the way. Starting topology is pure luck. Shouldn't be so chancy.

I'm going to replay this start after taking a little road trip here. (Of course I'm going to bump into a near-perfect setup when I don't really have time to play.) I also popped Pottery on turn 8 from a ruin, got a nearby Maritime city-state with a barbarian encampment next to it, just nice.

I want to post a screenshot of this start, btw. Two Gold hexes, the Marble, horses, nearby forest, some stone and cows. I don't usually post these, don't know where the screenshot files go. Help?

Cool, post the screenie so we can check it out.

A question I keep thinking about is the value of always settling on a hill, within reason, even if there is no luxury on the tile. It increases your initial city strength from 7 to 10 I believe. That's almost 50% stronger when you're most vulnerable to losing. I wonder if it's usually the right idea if, say, the hill is riverside and you have access to decent production? You get the extra hammer too.

 

[Aestis25]

Won my first Deity game (3rd attempt) since the patch. Babylon / Standard size / Marathon / 8 Civs / Random Map / everything else normal/standard settings.

Spoiler :

Was at war with my continent nearly the entire game but stayed Friendly with the other continent. Played mostly defensive for a large chunk of the game and got the Space victory in 1821 AD. I had a pretty strong starting spot with a big river + 5-6 hills, allowing me to build the Great Lib-Hanging Gardens-Porcelain Tower trifecta. I also expanded to 3-4 cities fairly early, which got me double DOW'd + Warrior rushed, but Babylonian Bowmen + the city dmg bonus from Walls of Babylon allowed me to skimp on early army a bit more than normal.

Capital city:

Spoiler :

1 turn before winning:

Spoiler :

 

[MadDjinn]

If you're not being 'aggressive' then a few archers are needed to defend yourself from the ones that are being aggressive. Can't ask for pure 'peaceful REx' all the time.

I just had a start where I got DoWd by Japan pre-turn 20. I had finished Pottery and was 5 turns from finish Archery. (2nd tech)

thankfully I had already planned on going Tradition, but didn't get Oligarchy until part way through the DoW. Only took 2-3 Archers and my starting warrior to fend off the attack. Got a break and another AI DoW'd Oda (he lost 6 or so warriors to me) which let me march 3 archers and two warriors to an expansion city of Japans and pillaged/burned it down. (it was beside me and messed up a better start location) Got all his gold in a peace treaty as his capital was very easy to defend. The other AI grabbed the other expansion city and that was the last thing Oda had to say in that game.

 

[Aestis25]

Have now played the start of quite a few games across Standard-Epic-Marathon lengths.

One difference post-patch is that you still get those turn-40-something DOWs pretty frequently on Marathon & Epic, just like Standard. This equates to turn ~15 on Standard. I'm guessing the AI is just more aggressive about realizing their early lead after the initial scouting/exploration period & DOW'ing to take advantage of it, but the net result is that they declare war much earlier in Marathon *relative* to Standard. That early defense can be much more difficult at times.

Just something interesting I've noticed, not sure if others' experience is similar who play on various lengths.

 

[Randall Turner]

click "go advanced" instead of submit reply, then manage attachments.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't know where the computer sticks the screenshot, not that I don't know how to post it. (ira dumbass )

Edit: see if that worked... seems to.

All I have to do here is take one step to the southeast and settle right on the Marble, I'm nestled between two rivers with a very good production & money generation location. (Not so great defense, but I'm gonna die anyway probably.)

This is more or less just a test to see how this works out.

 

[Vo01985]

How does one properly REX on deity when AI is spamming cities at every luxury resource... Also REXing always leads me into unhappiness.

 

[RedRover57]

We need more Deity Challenge games like the Mongol - Great Plains start that I posted a week or 2 ago. It's just so interesting seeing how different people fare with the same start due to the random nature of the game. If you read through that thread some people (like myself) were DoWed early and by multiple civs even before expanding, while others were able to expand a bit before their first DoW.

If someone has an interesting start then post the save, as long as you don't use DLC other than Mongols.

 

[ColinTH]

Have now played the start of quite a few games across Standard-Epic-Marathon lengths.

One difference post-patch is that you still get those turn-40-something DOWs pretty frequently on Marathon & Epic, just like Standard. This equates to turn ~15 on Standard. I'm guessing the AI is just more aggressive about realizing their early lead after the initial scouting/exploration period & DOW'ing to take advantage of it, but the net result is that they declare war much earlier in Marathon *relative* to Standard. That early defense can be much more difficult at times.

Just something interesting I've noticed, not sure if others' experience is similar who play on various lengths.

I play Marathon Deity and more often than not I don't have time to research archery let alone build an archer before being rush attacked, I can't send my warrior out exploring, and have to build a second warrior immediately.
I think you have a good point about AI exploration being so much quicker in Marathon relative to standard game length and therefore the attacks come quicker!

 

[147s]

Does the archerscout count as an archer when the AI rates your military? If the AI gets one it never seems to use it as an archer anyway. Its nice that deity is now getting closer to civ4 in terms of difficulty

 

[Ceterius]

I can consistently defeat AI's initial rush and capture a city or two on Deity as Germany. I don't really do well with any other civ.