Deity Spaceship in under 200 turns - a brief guide

[Tarkin1980]

The trick is to grow your production cities by pulling the Scientists after you pop a Great Scientist in that city. Doing that lets you get up around size 8-10, and you can then work nothing but Lumber Mills and Hills to get your Factories up and build parts. I suppose you could probably grow them even larger if you used lots of Maritimes and "avoid growth" in pure Science cities.

So you only ever make 1 GS in each production city? Do you keep the libraries and unis after that or sell them?

Does avoid growth prevent cities from growing even if they have surplus food? I've never used it because I assumed it just made the citizens work tiles that don't produce food.

 

[atteSmythe]

Does avoid growth prevent cities from growing even if they have surplus food? I've never used it because I assumed it just made the citizens work tiles that don't produce food.

In the first patch, they changed it from working the way you thought it did to actually not growing even if the granary is full. A nice side effect is that it gives you control over exactly how many of your cities grow, and when, since you can just uncheck that box for one turn, then check it again.

 

[alpaca]

In the first patch, they changed it from working the way you thought it did to actually not growing even if the granary is full. A nice side effect is that it gives you control over exactly how many of your cities grow, and when, since you can just uncheck that box for one turn, then check it again.

Except for puppets, which is a nice touch.

 

[Martin Alvito]

So you only ever make 1 GS in each production city? Do you keep the libraries and unis after that or sell them?

I keep them to micro tech pops. When stuffing the Scientists back into the Libraries/Unis speeds up research by a turn, I do it.

You also can micro Happiness by putting a single specialist in/out of cities to help time your second GA when you want it.

 

[alpaca]

I keep them to micro tech pops. When stuffing the Scientists back into the Libraries/Unis speeds up research by a turn, I do it.

You also can micro Happiness by putting a single specialist in/out of cities to help time your second GA when you want it.

Maybe selling only the university (and keeping the library) would be a good idea? It has a comparatively high maintenance and you can only run one specialist there. It also doesn't do a lot for you in a size 2 or 3 city which isn't running specialists most of the time. Sells for 20 gold.

 

[Gus_Smedstad]

Unless research is complete, keeping libraries and universities is the correct thing to do even if you aren't running specialists. They continue to increase science through their passive abilities - for a size-4 city, that's +2 science for the library, and +3 for the University. 3 science is worth at least 3 gold per turn.

 

[JudgeDeath]

I really don't agree with that. There were guys in these forums betting deity consistently in not very good starting positions. There were unwinabble positions, but they were the exception, not the rule.

This was before the patch. Not seen anyone recently claiming it - several expolits were closed in the patch, and the AI now does things it didn't previously.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Maybe selling only the university (and keeping the library) would be a good idea? It has a comparatively high maintenance and you can only run one specialist there. It also doesn't do a lot for you in a size 2 or 3 city which isn't running specialists most of the time. Sells for 20 gold.

First, I never take the specialists out of the Science cities, since I'm doing research the hard way all the way up through Nanotechnology. I just pull specialists from the cities that I eventually use to make parts, and micro those slots. As a rule, the Science cities end up at size 4. Any smaller and you don't get the Unis fast enough, which creates problems in the endgame.

As Gus points out, there are passive benefits (+3 Science) from keeping the Unis even in size 4 cities. The Unis also yield +2.5 Science per specialist when you have to stick them back in, which is good for up to 45 Science per turn when you need it. That +45 saves a few turns of research, which is potentially worth paying 18 GPT for.

Now, let's compare the benefits of selling the Unis. Suppose that a GS pops every 5 turns (rounding off, or if you have Hagia Sophia), and that the production cities pop them first starting on turn 115. Selling the Unis yields 120G plus saved maintenance. Suppose that I finish the tree and sell all Unis on turn 175. So the saved maintenance is 3 X (60 + 55 + 50 + 45 + 40 + 35), or 3 X 285 = 855G. Net benefit: 975G.

But what to do with it? I find that I can afford to rush everything in the capital anyway, and Hammers build Factories, Windmills and Forges in the production cities with time to spare. A second Spaceship Factory would be nice, but selling Unis early isn't necessary to do it. Once Nanotechnology is done, it is possible to sell all Unis for 45 GPT. You can resell that and the GPT from the ongoing Golden Age to an AI for cash. Between that and the proceeds from renewing luxury deals but not Research Agreements, you should have enough cash for two Spaceship Factories.

I just didn't happen to need the second Spaceship Factory that game, since I screwed up research and had a 7 turn head start on all the parts but the last one.

I suppose you could buy a Hospital someplace with the proceeds if you had a truly terrible sixth production city.

 

[dkrussian]

So just launched at turn 231 as France. With micro (The only micro was loading up specialists and leaving them there) would have been close to 200 I'm sure.

Some things I learned from this as compared to other games: as France taking meritocracy is the superior choice to trying to nab democracy later. (My democracy finishes were turn 250 and 261)The faster setup gets you better results than the 50% (Though I got the 33% from hagia sophia).
*This is opinion until we get more data though.*

Taking secularism and freedom remains the same, and with a cultural cs or two you should be able to do that on the turn you hit renaissance.

Here's where I really disagree with your setup: 6 production cities is pure nonsense. 3 is sufficient and even then most often one of them builds a booster and that's it.

Here's why:
Your capital will 80% of the time be your best production city even without the railroad bonus (which I find annoying).

Even the most paltry capital will have ~8 4 hammer tiles available (during golden age) which gives us 2+2+8*4=36 hammers base
standard multiplier set *1.15*1.5= 62.1 which is pretty damn weak, but I'm demonstrating a worst case scenario.

now if you HAVE 6 cities that can match that (which have to have ~9 tiles at 4 hammers to match AND be able to run them all since your capital has more food by definition) then more power to you, ignore everything I said, and proceed to have 6 production cities.

The moment the hammer spread gets past a certain point, however, you're better off ignoring the weaker ones.

You obviously get more by putting the multiplier on a bigger number, BUT there's another factor at play. By chain building you're getting the multiplier on TWO parts. So the weaker city has to produce more hammers on a single part than are gained on the two parts in a better city. This means the weaker city has to be 2/3 as powerful or better. (Once you put in the 1.5, they even out).

Now for the final piece: Should you be short on scientists or golden age, then the numbers stagger in favor of less production cities something FIERCE. Because in that case the better city already put some turns into parts that were available earlier, thus the new city has to somehow produce more than 2/3 main hammers + the hammers already put in.

Now for the other thing (which I realized too late to improve my game up there, but will certainly apply in my next game) When you start apollo do a quick calculation as to what happens first. Finishing apollo or getting to robotics. If apollo finishes faster or you're already in golden age the whole way (has never happened to me yet) then save em for bulbs. However if you're NOT finishing apollo before robotics, then MUCH more time is saved by throwing away those scientists to golden ages than on techs.
Having techs whose parts you can't build yet is stupid.

TLR:
1. Any city with less than 2/3 production of your main should immediately be discarded.

2. Golden age before bulb after apollo. (Possibly even saving a scientist or two on the bulb chain for immediate GA after you hit it.)

3. Multipliers in main city first take out loans to make sure every hammer has been squeezed in that physically can.

 

[dkrussian]

Also TIL that : D translates into a smiley on these forums I was trying to write TL; DR.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Here's where I really disagree with your setup: 6 production cities is pure nonsense. 3 is sufficient and even then most often one of them builds a booster and that's it.

I had six cities banging out 52+/turn. The good ones that built the 1000H parts were north of 60. I can imagine setups where you run Spaceship Factories and build a Booster, then the big parts in three production cities, but it will slow you down.

The trick is to space your production cities out. You should get a quality, self-sufficient production site or two. The remaining cities work tiles shared from other cities. If you three-space and every city you found adds at least two Hills or Forests to your boundaries, then you should be able to swing six Hills or Forests in each remaining production city. That's 27 Hammers, plus whatever you have on the other two tiles (at least 4). Launder that through a 1.15 (Factory + Windmill + Railroad) and you're in solid shape.

If you look at the map, you can see that Shushan is working Sippar and Kutha tiles, Dur-Kurigalzu is working Sippar tiles, Babylon is working Akkad tiles, Nippur is working tiles from the city in the northeast you can't see, the city in the lower right is working tiles from Borsippa and Opis, and the last production city is working its tiles and the ones near the other production city.

Now, I did have an insane number of Hills in this game, so I can't vouch for your ability to get that level of production in every game. But I'd imagine that you can get north of 40 Hammers in six cities in just about any game, assuming you build Railroads and Factories and utilize Golden Ages.

I agree that Golden Ages are extremely important after Apollo. If you're building two items per production city, GAs become absolutely vital in the manner you suggest.

Some things I learned from this as compared to other games: as France taking meritocracy is the superior choice to trying to nab democracy later. (My democracy finishes were turn 250 and 261)The faster setup gets you better results than the 50% (Though I got the 33% from hagia sophia).

I can see that, if it leads to Universities being done by turn 105 in 10-12 cities rather than 6-8. If I'm looking at 75 turns (many at +33%) vs. 60 turns at +83%, it's not much of a setback on GS production but the research ball gets rolling 15 turns earlier. That in turn means that the Research Agreements earn better techs, the FP and other Wonders land earlier, and things snowball.

 

[playshogi]

I can see that, if it leads to Universities being done by turn 105 in 10-12 cities rather than 6-8.

I can't see getting 6-8 cities with universities done by 105! It's already turn 51 in my game and I have 3 cities (4 on next turn). New York takes 15 turns to make a settler.
I captured New York and 2 workers on turn 28. Between selling to Japan and a peace deal from Washington, I allied with the 2 cultural City States. Tech path was Mining-Masonry-Animal husbandry-Wheel-Construction. I declared war on Japan to steal a worker and prevent its further expansion. Akkad has access to 4 horses plus 2 from Seoul. So, how can I do better?

 

[dkrussian]

I can't see getting 6-8 cities with universities done by 105! It's already turn 51 in my game and I have 3 cities (4 on next turn). New York takes 15 turns to make a settler.
I captured New York and 2 workers on turn 28. Between selling to Japan and a peace deal from Washington, I allied with the 2 cultural City States. Tech path was Mining-Masonry-Animal husbandry-Wheel-Construction. I declared war on Japan to steal a worker and prevent its further expansion. Akkad has access to 4 horses plus 2 from Seoul. So, how can I do better?

This is for France, who have taken the meritocracy chain and have +50% settler, +25% worker and +1 happy, have 6 cities by that point and are building a bunch more settlers. Also I had a maritime ally by that point, can't tell if you do or not, but those speed up settlers quite a bit as well.

 

[dkrussian]

I had six cities banging out 52+/turn. The good ones that built the 1000H parts were north of 60. I can imagine setups where you run Spaceship Factories and build a Booster, then the big parts in three production cities, but it will slow you down.

The trick is to space your production cities out. You should get a quality, self-sufficient production site or two. The remaining cities work tiles shared from other cities. If you three-space and every city you found adds at least two Hills or Forests to your boundaries, then you should be able to swing six Hills or Forests in each remaining production city. That's 27 Hammers, plus whatever you have on the other two tiles (at least 4). Launder that through a 1.15 (Factory + Windmill + Railroad) and you're in solid shape.

Yep, it's hard to tell though, and if you could play around and get your better cities to +78, then that would have been strictly superior. If you could improve the better city at the cost of tiles from a worse one, that would be even lower.

It's simply an iron rule if you can get a city to more than 3/2 production of another with gold for one SSF between them, then building both parts in one city is better. If you can get it to 2/1, then even with gold for TWO SFF you're STILL better off building both parts in one city.

The game I was playing was cramped and all the hills were clustered around 3 cities, and there weren't enough to split. On top of that I was France, so I got significantly less scientists than you+almost peaceful game(No GG)+someone else got Chichen Itza = I was really, really starved for GA.

So yeah, just pointing out to someone that if you're not blessed with enough sites...don't force them. Build exactly how many hammer cities you actually have, all the way down to 3 if that's what it takes. (I still certain 6 is a rarity and not the rule, though my other two games did have 5 sites, with only the capital chain building.)

 

[Martin Alvito]

Yep, it's hard to tell though, and if you could play around and get your better cities to +78, then that would have been strictly superior. If you could improve the better city at the cost of tiles from a worse one, that would be even lower.

Which makes an argument for rushed Hospitals, if you could come up with the cash somehow. If it were possible to get the production cities to size 12-13, that would be fantastic.

That in turn opens the door for alpaca's University sale plan.

I can't see getting 6-8 cities with universities done by 105! It's already turn 51 in my game and I have 3 cities (4 on next turn). New York takes 15 turns to make a settler.

You allied Seoul rather than Singapore. The food from a Maritime speeds up Settler production by a very wide margin.

What are you building in the capital? It isn't a Settler, but it should be.

You've got several 4 F/H tiles, so you should rip through the Settler expansion phase if you focus on Settlers. New York's in a pretty lousy spot, so I'd make a single Settler and then raze/replace it with the second to collect another Hill.

Slapping Japan with a DoW is pretty brave. I'd have stolen from Belgrade. But you may have made the right call, because there's going to be a war anyway.

Otherwise I think you're in pretty good shape. America's boxed in and is done for the game unless there's territory to the west I don't see. If you aggressively settle near Japan and choke that off, he's going to hit you with a DoW. But doing that will prevent him from collecting the city sites off to the north. I think you can get your cities here. Your production sites are a little blah. That spot NW of Satsuma will be strong late. Babylon will be strong and you can get a good site SE of Akkad. But I don't see #4, 5 or 6.

 

[JJDR]

Great post, I've been following this strategy in an attempt to win my first deity game and am doing quite well; As France, I am 84 turns in I've got 8 cities and I'm about 10 turns from popping my first GS.

My tech is slightly behind (I'm not to education yet) because the civ I warrior rushed at the start (Suleimon) is constantly trying to retake his city. Is it just bad luck or is there some way to keep civs near you happy? How much of your game during turns 50-150 were you at war?

 

[Martin Alvito]

My tech is slightly behind (I'm not to education yet) because the civ I warrior rushed at the start (Suleimon) is constantly trying to retake his city. Is it just bad luck or is there some way to keep civs near you happy? How much of your game during turns 50-150 were you at war?

You should be able to keep that civ at bay with city shots until your opponent gets Swords or Horses. Usually that civ will not be able to recover and get decent units because others will settle the decent sites. If they can, you'll know it once you have IW if you explore. I want to say that I declared around turn 60 for a double Worker steal, got declared on by Monty around turn 100 (and cleaned that up with Swords and a couple of Horses with ease), and then had off-again, on-again wars with Wu from turn 110 through the end of the game.

I've been finishing out the French "bad rush" game trying Meritocracy, and I seem to be having similar results to yours. The position is great in that game; with some creative blocking I've been able to make Suleiman play an OCC. He hates Tokugawa's guts too and won't sign Open Borders, so there's no danger even though both have DoW'd me. But the lack of a free GS really, really hurts. I may have to consider aggressively growing two cities and putting Libraries in both early on just so I can bulb what I need when I need it.

I'm starting to suspect that Meritocracy is pretty suboptimal for this strategy. You end up too busy making roads to improve Hills like you should, which puts you behind on infrastructure. You get some of the lost time back in Settler and Worker movement, but not enough. I'd probably have been better off Mining like crazy and doing a full second wave of Settlers rather than getting a couple more cities online at the start.

 

[Gus_Smedstad]

I'm starting to suspect that Meritocracy is pretty suboptimal for this strategy. You end up too busy making roads to improve Hills like you should, which puts you behind on infrastructure.

Don't over look the cash effects of those roads. Given that you prefer mines over trading posts even on the satellite cities, and you've mentioned you were strapped for cash instead of getting the 100+ gold per turn without a Golden Age which is common for ICS, I suspect the extra income from trade routes was keeping you afloat.

 

[Martin Alvito]

It's a question of order. After connecting luxuries, Paeanblack's Worker sequence goes Roads -> tiles, while I have had more success with the reverse even under Meritocracy. Keep in mind that the roads are more or less revenue neutral until you grow past size 2, which typically happens around when I'm hooking up roads aggressively anyway.

I'm not yet willing to state conclusively that what I suspect is the way to go. To draw a firm conclusion, I either need more empirical data (games) or theory. The optimization problem I see is a monster and requires some brave assumptions to solve, so I tend to think that pure theory has reached its useful limit for someone of my mathematical abilities, which are quality but not world-class.

But to summarize the problem, it would appear that +33% Colosseum, Library and University building speed in the core beats an extra two cities and faster Settling in the second wave resulting from roads and Liberty. I can think of a fair number of reasons why this might be true, but the principal one appears to be that timing the GA such that it lands when all cities are settled is vital.

I'll let you know more as I figure out just what's binding along the boundaries and as patches force deviations from the current line of play. The results so far also get me wondering about Rome.

 

[jorissimo]

Can't this be done without a warrior rush? A lot of people seem to have trouble with it. I rolled like six starts last night, doing the exact same thing you said, and I just can't pull it off. Isn't it much faster to build a warrior until size two, then start a settler, and steal workers from a militaristic or hostile CS? A settler is 89 hammers, a bit more than two warriors (40 hammers each) that you'll lose anyway with a rush (IF you can pull it off). Further, an early attack will cause some DOW's later on, which is another drawback.