Democratic Party direction post-Harris

[Zardnaar]

So much so that both polled beneath "the economy" in literally every 2024 election analysis.

Economy was relatively fine. At least on paper.

It's a messaging problem. Swing voters in USA is more like 5% maybe 10% max. If you can't appeal to them you lose.

 

[Gorbles]

Economy was relatively fine. At least on paper.

It's a messaging problem. Swing voters in USA is more like 5% maybe 10% max. If you can't appeal to them you lose.

Don't argue with me, argue with the voters. Tell them the economy was fine

 

[danjuno]

Economy was relatively fine. At least on paper.

It's a messaging problem. Swing voters in USA is more like 5% maybe 10% max. If you can't appeal to them you lose.

You spent all that time lecturing me on appealing to voters and then proceed to tell me their concern for the economy doesn't matter? Furthermore, none of the issues with the Pre-Covid economy were addressed, just the symptoms that manifested during it.

 

[Akka]

The other big issue is the entire US media appratus is pro GOP. Tik Tok is pro Trump. All news is pro Trump. Facebook is pro Trump. The Dems need to somehow buildup their own media project and do it pronto. They are way behind here and it’s an existential threat.

In this thread, I made a little check and shown that actually, about 80 % of the main media leans left. You were there and you saw it, yet you're still here trying to pretend that the Dem are being swamped by this imaginary domination of Republican media powerhouse.
And that's just media outlet, I also pointed there that Hollywood is massively pro-Democrats, the whole entertainment industry lean towards Democrat and even companies (at least before Trump got reelected) were pushing the whole social justice policies. So when you then explain it's all top-down... well, you'd wonder why it's not a tidal wave of Democrats votes everytime.

The big issue seems to me to be denial of reality first and foremost.

 

[Gorbles]

In this thread, I made a little check and shown that actually, about 80 % of the main media leans left.

You found a single chart and despite claiming you know nothing about it, take it at its word to be a "check".

I'm presuming, maybe incorrectly, that you meant "fact check" as you seem to be presenting it as factual.

And that's just media outlet, I also pointed there that Hollywood is massively pro-Democrats, the whole entertainment industry lean towards Democrat and even companies (at least before Trump got reelected) were pushing the whole social justice policies.

Sebastian Stan Said People Privately Praised His Trump Biopic, But Refused To Publicly Support It

Sebastian has pointed out that he could have discussed his other film, A Different Man, on the popular Variety series, but no other actor would pair with him after he left Trump furious with the controversial biopic The Apprentice.

www.buzzfeed.com

I look forward to the correction of your opinion based on factual evidence to the contrary.

Edited for clarity around fact checking (and grammar).

 

[Lexicus]

In this thread, I made a little check and shown that actually, about 80 % of the main media leans left. You were there and you saw it, yet you're still here trying to pretend that the Dem are being swamped by this imaginary domination of Republican media powerhouse.

You are doing the Dunning-Kruger effect with respect to that graph lol

 

[Voidwalkin]

View attachment 715048

Unclear if the implication is limited to "Republican lite, lose" in which case yeah, she overplayed that angle. One week woulda been OK, 4 weeks campaigning was inefficient time management.

Begs the question, where do they go? Can't triangulate, OK. I doubt it's a consistent formula too. But you can't go Rashida Tlaib with it and win outside of the core bastions of liberalism, either. That formula would get hammered mercilessly. I'd just shift the framework. The social happens locally, national party pushes economics and tolerates dissent.

If the Obama era was heavy on symbolism and light on policy, new Dems would push economic policy belligerently, but accept moving social questions to the state level without fuss, explicitly. To do otherwise, Republicans will play divide and conquer, offering "we'll protect your valued norms if you look the other way on class interests", a deal huge portions of voters are obviously taking. An explicitly non-interventionist party would diminish the perception of imposed change, and lessen the value of the implicit Republican offer.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

The thing about that last bit is that who they like, and consequently trust enough to represent their interests in matters they don't particularly understand, is... basically determined by moral authority, and of course the moral center of a population is something that is holistic and determined by much more than candidate A's policy.

The effect you're describing occurs after. "Trump is aligned with me on traditional masculinity, against radical alterations in norms, therefore I trust him on the Paris Accords or tariffs or whatever".

I don't see that as particularly top-down tbh, because it all occurs after population or demo X has already concluded A is more aligned morally than B.

Well I think a lot of it is still media creation. You can find a million on the street interviews with Americans to this day who still say “I voted for Trump because he is a successful businessman.” Is he actually particularly successful? No. Did years of laundering his rep through The Apprentice and trashy books and brand deals convince people he was? Yep. So then if he is such a smart and capable businessman, of course he knows what he is talking about when it comes to the economy and taxes and hard work and all this other ancillary stuff. I’m constantly surprised at how many older non-offline people I meet who just say “wow Elon is so wealthy he must be a genius!” Like ok buddy. You yourself are probably smarter than him.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

In this thread, I made a little check and shown that actually, about 80 % of the main media leans left. You were there and you saw it, yet you're still here trying to pretend that the Dem are being swamped by this imaginary domination of Republican media powerhouse.
And that's just media outlet, I also pointed there that Hollywood is massively pro-Democrats, the whole entertainment industry lean towards Democrat and even companies (at least before Trump got reelected) were pushing the whole social justice policies. So when you then explain it's all top-down... well, you'd wonder why it's not a tidal wave of Democrats votes everytime.

The big issue seems to me to be denial of reality first and foremost.

I don’t know that website at all and find it hard to respond to it given that reality, but when billionaire John Malone, who became the largest investor to CNN in 2022 (and is a board member who is very close with the actual owner) goes in public multiple times and states he wants to literally shift CNN to the right, and then CNN gradually does so, I would say it’s lost whatever this chart is trying to say. I think that chart prima facie comes off as unreliable and dishonest. That chart also completely ignores local news or social media.

 

[Birdjaguar]

In this thread, I made a little check and shown that actually, about 80 % of the main media leans left. You were there and you saw it, yet you're still here trying to pretend that the Dem are being swamped by this imaginary domination of Republican media powerhouse.
And that's just media outlet, I also pointed there that Hollywood is massively pro-Democrats, the whole entertainment industry lean towards Democrat and even companies (at least before Trump got reelected) were pushing the whole social justice policies. So when you then explain it's all top-down... well, you'd wonder why it's not a tidal wave of Democrats votes everytime.

The big issue seems to me to be denial of reality first and foremost.

There are several forces at work here. MSM is left biased, but it has not been aggressively anti Trump. It is only a few of the main media (MSNBC!) that actively went after Trump. The GOP has a huge media presence that goes outside of the mainstream and has been using radio, social media, and local media (newspapers and TV) to saturate markets with conservative talking points and anti Democrat messages. Those outlets have been overwhelming any celebrity endorsements.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Don't argue with me, argue with the voters. Tell them the economy was fine

 

[Hygro]

Our memes are weak.

 

[Gorbles]

A lot of us have been told we need to listen to the voters' feelings. Doesn't matter how contradictory they are.

And I understand it! But the same posters can't ignore them now just because they want to blame the usual scapegoats.

 

[Hygro]

Gorbles, that’s right.

And how are we evening “listening” to these voters’ feelings? Weird centralized filters that don’t even tap into the vortex of their unarticulated total feelings of a complex system and their lives in it? And when asked, they just say whatever recent meme or article resonated loudly enough to repeat, no matter if it’s 1000 times quieter than the captured chaos they submit to that’s really driving their final decision. A chaos they will never articulate.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

I think the thing is it’s weird how selective people are about “voters are objective.” It’s well known that the average American voter thinks crime and immigration have been increasing for like 60 years straight. Gallup has been running that bad boy forever. When you ask Americans to describe the nation’s demographics they recite back bonkers stuff like “20% of the population is Muslim” or “35% are atheist” or “40% are gay” or whatever. When you ask them to describe the stock market in the last year many say “very low.”

And everybody kind of goes well, yeah, they get stuff wrong, it happens to everyone. Sure! But then when those same Americans say something about the economy, well, you cannot question that. It’s elitist/arrogant/whatever. Nobody seems to think in this fractured a media and tech environment, if people are getting everything else wrong in spades, they can’t get that wrong? That if you think like, murders are happening all over your neighborhood you can’t also think the economy is in the absolute trash?

 

[Gorbles]

I personally just like consistent arguments. I appreciate that voters that will vote on feelings, even against their own self-interest at times. But those feelings shouldn't be discarded for "woke bad" (or any other rationalisation after the fact) anytime someone doesn't want to think too hard about why the Democrats lost again.

(important note: I don't think this is your argument at all)

 

[Hygro]

I personally just like consistent arguments. I appreciate that voters that will vote on feelings, even against their own self-interest at times. But those feelings shouldn't be discarded for "woke bad" (or any other rationalisation after the fact) anytime someone doesn't want to think too hard about why the Democrats lost again.

(important note: I don't think this is your argument at all)

Me too.

And it reveals a persons own bias more, but not by much. “See I told you woke was the problem” because it bothered you from the get. Whether that’s as simple as racism or gender ferocity or as complex as some imagined other where you fear their bigotry to the point of surrender or maybe something weirder like a fetish for incomplete free speech and hallucinating that others care in your mental construction… it’s still revealing you.

 

[Akka]

You found a single chart and despite claiming you know nothing about it, take it at its word to be a "check".

Stil vastly better than the random claims right from the butt about somehow the whole media being pro-Republicans.

You are doing the Dunning-Kruger effect with respect to that graph lol

Unlike the "every media is far-right save MSNBC" which is such an objectively competent affirmation, lol.

I don’t know that website at all and find it hard to respond to it given that reality, but when billionaire John Malone, who became the largest investor to CNN in 2022 (and is a board member who is very close with the actual owner) goes in public multiple times and states he wants to literally shift CNN to the right, and then CNN gradually does so, I would say it’s lost whatever this chart is trying to say. I think that chart prima facie comes off as unreliable and dishonest. That chart also completely ignores local news or social media.

Well, care to provide some actual research about the leaning of the main media in the US then ?
Because so far, the original website seems pretty reliable from what I could gather in my empirical and flawed experience. Another chart, made by self-avowed slightly left-of-center people in 2018, shows roughly the same distribution. That's two different sources with a rather good correlation.
On the other side, I've random people on a website making claims that the whole media is pro-Republicans without providing anything but their opinions that has a pretty strong history of being significantly biased itself. So yeah, I'm going to go with the charts until I get some actual significantly reliable alternative.

There are several forces at work here. MSM is left biased, but it has not been aggressively anti Trump. It is only a few of the main media (MSNBC!) that actively went after Trump. The GOP has a huge media presence that goes outside of the mainstream and has been using radio, social media, and local media (newspapers and TV) to saturate markets with conservative talking points and anti Democrat messages. Those outlets have been overwhelming any celebrity endorsements.

And maybe the GOP having a media presence outside the mainstream comes from the fact that the mainstream has been overwhelming Democrats, so they just found and took themselves a different niche to get their own winning battlefield. It's still a pretty different picture than the one painted in this thread, with the "we lost to Trump because we're such small David against this Goliath of media" when it's actually the side that lost which had a MASSIVE upper hand in the big media - maybe the actual picture in the mind of the average voter is the opposite one when it comes to who is the underdog here.
One thing I can say, is that the media coming out from the US, is massively more Democrat in its message than Republican. Hearing the complaint that everything is pro-Republican when I see the absolute opposite in everything that reach the most people in the world makes for a jarring dissonance.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

A few things;

Once again, charts like that flatten scope and popularity.
Two; once again, no mention of local news.
Three, and this is the biggest, I take it you are not aware of Jimmy Dore? It’s true he used to be left wing… years ago. He has been for some time now a pro Putin/RFK/Trump anti-vax conspiracy nut, and about as far from left wing as it gets. I question the entire validity of that chart if they get that so blatantly wrong. That’s not even a rookie mistake that’s a baby mistake.

 

[Gorbles]

Stil vastly better than the random claims right from the butt about somehow the whole media being pro-Republicans.

You're citing opinion vs. opinion. You can disagree with it as much as you want, but I'll note you ignored my evidence that runs contrary to your claim about Hollywood "leaning Democrat".