Denmark - Completely useless or...?

[Securion]

Denmark was OK when melee was still important. But I rather go for the Education tech.

You can do hilarious stuff regarding amphibious warfare though. Movement is silly when coming out of the water.

Yea that pretty much sums it up really. "Silly movement" or Universities in your cities. Yeah real tough one.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Ok, ok, my 3rd attempt to come up with a good fix for Denmark.
Trying to get the best out of the Viking age (and also put it on the right time line and not so close to the renaissance) and also gives who ever playing as Denmark an optional strategy if the warmongering does not pan out in the early game.

So Denmark would have some early game exploration opportunities and also being able to put out some really strong land and sea units in the late classical era. Also gives them longer trade routes if they use the long ship since it dont have a distance limit. And the UA Valhalla is for obvious reasons since warfare and honor was such a huge part of the Viking era until they got christened pretty late 11-12th century. And today Viking artefacts are very popular so that is why the extra culture or tourism is needed and also since their UA can disappear pretty quickly otherwise. They are not very likely to try and get a religion and I guess their surrounding civilizations will try and convert them asap.

UA: Valhalla
For as long as the Danish capital have not adopted a religion, gain culture for every enemy killed and every unit lost in battle. Culture based on strength of unit. After flight is discovered every archaeological finding from Denmark between ancient era and renaissance era have the doubled out put in either culture or tourism (creating a land mark doubles the culture, placing it in a museum doubles the tourism but only if Denmark is the owner of it).

UU: Longship (after researching Optics)
Cost: 100
Strength: 14
Movement 4
Has a melee attack and may capture cities. Coastal raider 1 promotion
Can enter deep ocean.
Can be used as a cargo ship and can not be plundered. If destroyed the attacker gains gold as if it was a plundered cargo ship. Trade routes dont spread religion.
Upgrades to Caravel, trade route ability then lost.


UU: Viking (replaces swordsman, upgrades to longsword)
Cost: 85 (requires iron)
Strength: 18
Movement: 2
Amphibious (dont stay with upgrade)
Embarked Vikings can defend them self and also melee attack (dont stay with upgrade)
Pay no movement cost for pillaging. (dont stay with upgrade)

 

[Ribannah]

UB: Danish Wind Power Academy (requires Electronics)
Cost: 365
Windmills provide one additional Engineer slot.
A Great Engineer appears.

 

[azzaman333]

A big part of the problem is the Norwegian Ski Infantry is as good as useless. Replace that with, say a Trading Post (replaces Harbour, an additional +50% on trade route yields (including domestic, not sure if they're currently affected by Harbours)), and suddenly they're no longer awful.

EDIT: Was thinking along lines of Civ4's UB for Vikings with the name, definitely give it a name that isn't Trading Post, but the general idea remains valid.

 

[Magean]

I know, I'm kinda necromancing this thread but anyway, it has already been resurrected once...

The reason why Denmark has been left in this situation is, IMHO, that it's a DLC civ. The devs need it to work with vanilla Civ V, so they won't make any use of trade routes and other new things. And I guess they don't care about a civ that not everybody has.

 

[ravenmagus]

I know, I'm kinda necromancing this thread but anyway, it has already been resurrected once...

The reason why Denmark has been left in this situation is, IMHO, that it's a DLC civ. The devs need it to work with vanilla Civ V, so they won't make any use of trade routes and other new things. And I guess they don't care about a civ that not everybody has.

It could give a different bonus in BNW, like Arabia does.

 

[NinjaGnat]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the best part of Berserkers, they're available once you research metal casting, instead of steel. If you beeline for it once your national college is up you can get early access to a very powerful unit which can take cities fairly easily thanks to their high strength, mobility and pillage healing.

The real problem is that taking cities early is just bad, it has ruinous diplomatic and happiness related consequences.

 

[Carazycool]

I just rolled a random map with a random civ (immortal difficulty) and got Denmark. I ended up winning diplomacy. The Beserkers that upgrade to Ski Infantry are awesome units. Extra movement through Tundra (take out tundra neighbors easily) and can pillage everything in sight. Tundra neighbors don't stand a chance.

I agree that they are one of the weaker civs, but it was fun to play as them.

 

[FinsT]

Bottom-tier overall, yes they are. Worst? Nope, they are not. Situational. Like others said, maps with lots of islands and archipelagoes - is the thing. Lots of turnda, too (though it's truth normally no player would go much tundra willingly). However, on any map with indeed _large_ tundra areas - those norwegian troops shine quite much, with that extra movement and +25% combat power. The upgrade, i believe, should stick with unit's upgrades to stronger infantries, too - all the way to mechanized infantry, making 'em stronger and - in tundra and hills - 3 times faster than Xcom squads, without any need for Uranium, too (thinking GDRs, that is).

Like many other civs, certain circumstances are needed for Denmark to become strong choice. Some civs shine in deserts, others in forests, etc etc; Denmark happen to shine on a map much or most of which is tundra and lots of islands, with that. Extremely rare, usually, circumstances - given OP's settings for the game (usual settings, i mean). So yes, if said settings are to stay, then the best thing is to start over with some other civ, i guess...

But if one would make a map of, say, imaginable planet - always near-zero cold all-around, thus all tundra, with no big continents whatsoever, - that's when Denmark would be strong.

 

[ravenmagus]

3 times faster than Xcom squads, without any need for Uranium, too (thinking GDRs, that is).

XCOM squads go where they want.

Your Norwegian Ski Tanks are fast but by the time they troop in to the enemy's city the XCOM squad your city on the other continent just finished building is already there.

 

[adwcta]

guys, stop trying. there is no hope for Denmark.

berserkers don't hold up to the standards set by cheap impis, keshiks, ship of the line, b17 bombers, cheap panzers, etc. and Denmark has absolutely ZERO infrastructure or gold-saving bonuses the way all other civs do, besides Mongolia. oh, and early Medieval Era is easily the worst time to do anything on higher difficulties (that's when the tech gap is greatest on Deity, and why it's impossible to get Chitzen Iza, Manchu Pichu, Hagia Sophia or Borobudur on Deity).

Denmark needs a major buff.

 

[KmDubya]

You need to play to their strengths to get anything out of them. Go all in for iron and beeline metal casting. Early berserkers are tough, back them with catapults for the cities and you can kick ass. An extra bonus is that physics is the next tech which will get you Notre Dame with either a spawned great engineer from Stonehenge or Pyramids or from Liberty. It makes for a nice break from a composite bow rush.

Current game got Denmark as random on small continents low sea level. Starting position was weak with a very close Mongolia with a multi salt and wheat start. Went liberty and settled iron on the far side of Mongolia. Luckily Genghis took the time to build the Great Library and Colossus before conquering two nearby city states. Open field berserkers take anything at the time, and can survive city attack + archer + galleas. The free pillage plus three movement allow the critical wounded to survive and run away to heal. The free movement after landing lets your catapults land set up and fire in the first turn.

They are not a super power like Poland but have a different play style that is fun and effective if you try and work it. If you do the standard beeline education then you miss out on what makes Denmark different. They won't run the map like keshiks or camel archers but they will rock one or two neighbors and give you a huge amount of land.

 

[azzaman333]

Bottom-tier overall, yes they are. Worst? Nope, they are not. Situational. Like others said, maps with lots of islands and archipelagoes - is the thing. Lots of turnda, too (though it's truth normally no player would go much tundra willingly). However, on any map with indeed _large_ tundra areas - those norwegian troops shine quite much, with that extra movement and +25% combat power. The upgrade, i believe, should stick with unit's upgrades to stronger infantries, too - all the way to mechanized infantry, making 'em stronger and - in tundra and hills - 3 times faster than Xcom squads, without any need for Uranium, too (thinking GDRs, that is).

Like many other civs, certain circumstances are needed for Denmark to become strong choice. Some civs shine in deserts, others in forests, etc etc; Denmark happen to shine on a map much or most of which is tundra and lots of islands, with that. Extremely rare, usually, circumstances - given OP's settings for the game (usual settings, i mean). So yes, if said settings are to stay, then the best thing is to start over with some other civ, i guess...

But if one would make a map of, say, imaginable planet - always near-zero cold all-around, thus all tundra, with no big continents whatsoever, - that's when Denmark would be strong.

If Denmark isn't the worst, who is?

To be fair, they've improved since Zerks were moved to MC rather than Steel, but they still have less going for them than any other civ.

 

[ravenmagus]

If Denmark isn't the worst, who is?

To be fair, they've improved since Zerks were moved to MC rather than Steel, but they still have less going for them than any other civ.

I really want to say America. I really do.

I know it's probably not true - they're at least a little better then Denmark, probably ... but they're so boring to play.

 

[Propman]

I really want to say America. I really do.

I know it's probably not true - they're at least a little better then Denmark, probably ... but they're so boring to play.

America might have a godawful UA, but the sheer amount of starting promotions the Minuteman has mostly serves to balance that out. Still, they're perhaps the most vanilla one can get as far as civs go, barring playing a city state.

 

[azzaman333]

I really want to say America. I really do.

I know it's probably not true - they're at least a little better then Denmark, probably ... but they're so boring to play.

Denmark is definitely more interesting, but interesting and good are two completely different things. (for example, Babylon, boring uniques but very good civ)

America's UA is more widely applicable than Denmark's. I'd also say Minutemen and B17s are superior to either of Denmark's UUs, since the Minuteman is effective on any terrain, while B17's siege promotion makes it much easier to get the crucial Air Repair and roll face.

 

[Erelich]

America's UA is hardly godawful. It's far from being one of the best, but the extra sight is pretty nice for early game scouting, it helps you find ancient ruins and makes barbarians easier to avoid with your scouts. Give me America over Denmark any day. I mean, pretty much every other civ has something than makes them worth playing but Denmark has nothing. They are easily the worst civ in the game, at least in my opinion. Garbage UA, terrible UUs. Why would you ever want to play as them?

 

[azzaman333]

America's UA is hardly godawful. It's far from being one of the best, but the extra sight is pretty nice for early game scouting, it helps you find ancient ruins and makes barbarians easier to avoid with your scouts. Give me America over Denmark any day. I mean, pretty much every other civ has something than makes them worth playing but Denmark has nothing. They are easily the worst civ in the game, at least in my opinion. Garbage UA, terrible UUs. Why would you ever want to play as them?

You want to abuse their ability to disembark a siege weapon and have it instantly attack. You want to do a Longswordsman rush for some reason (Zerks at MC is a big help). You really like the novelty of the Ski Infantry. You like a challenge.

Yeah, it's slim pickings.

 

[adwcta]

America might have a godawful UA, but the sheer amount of starting promotions the Minuteman has mostly serves to balance that out. Still, they're perhaps the most vanilla one can get as far as civs go, barring playing a city state.

Yup. And don't forget the B-17 is the best air UU in the game... a huge upgrade over the regular bomber, coming at a time when the AI is not equipped to deal with air (not until Rocketry can the AI even remotely stop a fleet of B-17s with a medic or two nearby). A B-17 can face bomb a AA gun and win. Oh, and don't forget that the two important bonuses of the B-17 carry over to Stealth Fighters, which make them invincible even in the end-game.

The tile purchasing bonus is actually very good if you're playing liberty starts right. On an average liberty game, even when I am going for CV and have high culture, I will usually need to purchase at least a dozen tiles in the 100 gold - 200 gold range. That's something along the lines of 1500 gold over the course of the game, normally. With America, you can probably be even more aggressive about purchasing and if you're not going for CV, be even more lax about culture and get more benefit.

America's probably not even one of the 10 worst civs (and certainly not one of the bottom 5).

 

[ravenmagus]

Oh, and don't forget that the two important bonuses of the B-17 carry over to Stealth Fighters, which make them invincible even in the end-game.

Stealth bombers are already invincible in the late-game Seriously, short of nuking the city they're in, I have no idea how you're supposed to deal with them. I mean, other than the fact that if you have stealth bombers you probably could have won SV already, but SV is lame anyways.

America and Liberty is a good point. It's true that Liberty has issues with slow border expansion (I kinda feel like that Tradition bonus should be Liberty's, the tree all about faster expanding...)