Denniz's first HoF submission

[Denniz]

I finished COTM10 and wanted something to do. I had been seeing the HoF updates and had been checking out the forum over the last few weeks. So I decided what the heck.

I started by downloading MapFinder. ( Moonsinger and Dianthus) I picked Bablyon, tiny, chieftan, pangaea, normal, wet, 5 billion with 3 opponents. I originally picked Greece, Ottomans and Korea, but I got Greece, Eygpt, and Rome when I messed up the save folder. It started a conquest scenario which reset all my picks. I noticed and fixed everything execpt the Civs.

The only setting I changed beyond the normal GOTM ones was Sci Leaders. Barbs were raging.

Here is my start:

I got 2 MGL and 1 SciGL. I brought Greece forward into MA and IA. Only the MA produced a non-dup, IIRC.

I don't know what is normal for one of these post as I haven't read too much yet. So I will just post some pictures.

Here is my 20K city at the end:

City cultural builds from F5 screen:

 

[LulThyme]

Grats on your first submission!!
Considering your start position, your temple built date is surprinsingly late...
What did you build in between?

 

[Denniz]

Grats on your first submission!!

Thanks. This was also my first 20K victory. The only thing I knew about it was what I had read over in the GOTM forum spoilers. I made a ton of mistakes early on. That's why I started on chieftan.

Considering your start position, your temple built date is surprinsingly late...
What did you build in between?

I think all I built was warrior, warrior, settler. Of course, that first warrior was a little slow out of the gate as I moved south (to get next to coast) before settling. With only the wheat in my city radius to start, I concentrated on pop growth. I roaded and irrigated it first.

 

[Smirk]

Good game!

Dates for the wonders is perhaps the most of interest for 20k, so the screenshot is nice, that and your start. Nice start, that looks like a fun map to play.

I would rethink your start though, the warriors are not needed at chief, and I and I'm sure Lul starts with a temple. I like to see this before 3000 BC, and depending on your start this is not hard at all, I've gotten it as early as 3500. Other than the upkeep this doesn't affect your early game much at all, and if there is a tree to cut you can get that settler about as quick as your posted start.

Most everything else look right on a winning path, only other tip I would suggest is place the theatre higher on your priority list, the chapel isn't important at all short of raw culture generation whereas the theatre acts as a hospital so IMO is the most important wonder in the game for fast 20k. This ranks up there with things like settle on a river.

 

[Denniz]

I would rethink your start though, the warriors are not needed at chief, and I and I'm sure Lul starts with a temple. I like to see this before 3000 BC, and depending on your start this is not hard at all, I've gotten it as early as 3500. Other than the upkeep this doesn't affect your early game much at all, and if there is a tree to cut you can get that settler about as quick as your posted start.

Good point. Starting without scouting seems alien but I can see where that would be better. Chopping seems to be my personal blind spot. I almost never think of it.

Most everything else look right on a winning path, only other tip I would suggest is place the theatre higher on your priority list, the chapel isn't important at all short of raw culture generation whereas the theatre acts as a hospital so IMO is the most important wonder in the game for fast 20k. This ranks up there with things like settle on a river.

Yeah, I was going by highest cpt on on hand. I didn't think about the possibility of growing beyond 12 until later. It seems like the big acceleraters are Theatre, steam, factory, coal plant, etc.

I am going to have to try it again to see if I can do better. I used the best of the 8 maps MapFinder found (out of over 4500!). I will look them over again and see if I can use one or if I should generate some more.

After that I plan to work my way up the various difficulties. At this rate, I may try one in GOTM.

 

[LulThyme]

Smirk is right in pointing out that its good to start on temple right away, except if you have goody huts on, then 1 warrior to try and get a settler...
Right also about Theatre.
More tips : having scientific adversaries and using the big picture to accelerate tech paste is very good too.
About chopping forest, be careful as sometimes the forests are needed early on to achieve maximum production, this depends on terrain...
Some more comments : it looks like you rushed the Library which is good, but not the Cathedral and Colosseum.
It is very important to cash rush those at least partially so they finish in one turn (disbanding a unit first to reduce cost can help), as this is the only rushing you can do in the game, so take advantage of it.
Save cash dozens of turns in advance if needed, thats the kind of thing you learn after a few games.
Library , Coll, Cath, Un, Res Lab even factory and coal plant should ALL be built in one turn if at all possible.
I also recently found a nice little trick to Micromanage production a little bit more in the end game (starting in the Industrial Age usually)
You all the tiles in radius (in your case there is one youre not using).
When you are going to go overproduce the wonder, irrigate some tiles to get more food and fill up your granary.
Then mine them back next turn (Im assuming you have an army of workers)
Then next time you have a wonder you could shave off a turn by getting an extra 30-40 shields, go into starving by overmining your tiles.
Basically you can view every food as a potential shield, stored away.

 

[Denniz]

More tips : having scientific adversaries and using the big picture to accelerate tech paste is very good too.

Well, the orginal plan was to have three. Even with one I was able to get Theology from Greece. Got a dup on IA.

Some more comments : it looks like you rushed the Library which is good, but not the Cathedral and Colosseum.
It is very important to cash rush those at least partially so they finish in one turn (disbanding a unit first to reduce cost can help), as this is the only rushing you can do in the game, so take advantage of it...

I was letting them build one turn and cash-rushing them the next for the most part. I think I got distracted during one of those and forgot. I don't remember the other. I must say, disbanding a unit to get it done in one turn for cheaper, is a much better idea. Very clever.

I also recently found a nice little trick to Micromanage production a little bit ... Basically you can view every food as a potential shield, stored away.

That's good! I don't think It would have help this game as I was 100% mined before steam. I will definately keep this one in mind.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[LulThyme]

Actually it does help even if youre 100% mined.
Thats the beauty of it and I just figured that out not so long ago.
It allows you to transfer shield from one project through the other through food!!!
So if youre going to go over on a project, change the extra into food, and after change it back to shields on the next project that needs it (by irrigating and mining)!!

 

[Smirk]

That can be a very neat trick, I've never done it intentionally, but have been in cases where whatever I do I always produce one extra food.

Although, until recently I've always had problems figuring out how many shields I have and have left, but I recently figured a trick. Selecting wealth gives you shields waste, then add one to it and thats whats in the box. Course any thing will do, but wealth is easiest on the math.

That's good! I don't think It would have help this game as I was 100% mined before steam. I will definately keep this one in mind.

That could be the case, in which case maybe look for more dynamic starting positions where you can take advantage of this, for instance since you don't care about max score or pop in more sense than how many shields you can get you might want a few plains which while normally irrigated can be mined for +2s if needed.

 

[sanabas]

Actually it's only useful while your city is still growing. It won't make any of your builds quicker, it just trades off shields that would be surplus for food, which means you grow quicker. While I'm growing to 12 I usually dont have the workers to spare, and don't have them in easy reach of the capital anyway. I'll reassign tiles to maximise food if I can, but there's usually not more than 1 or 2 opportunities before my city is size 12. Once I build shakespeare's, I usually have enough workers waiting to immediately grow the city to size 20 and max production, so there's not that much use to it, other than to get the next specialist citizen slightly quicker, which I would also rather do by joining a worker.

 

[LulThyme]

Once you get replacable parts, an extra specialist which cost 2 food per turn can be transformed into 2 shields per turn, base so the trick comes into full power, and you should never waste a shield on anything...
(good point about wealth smirk, i figured that some time ago, and though everybody used that...)

So, sanabas, suppose you are at size 20 , in a hills rich area, so you need some irrigation to get no surplus food.
Then you can use my trick, to trade shields for extra food and back again, even before replacable parts.
If you are in a food rich, and everything mined already gives you enough to reach 20, then you need to wait for rep part for the trick to work.

 

[Denniz]

Same setting except I got Greece, Ottomans, and Koreans this time. I think I am doing somewhat better this time. It was 210BC when I stopped play...

Edit2: I had the wrong starting position. Fixed picture.

Edit: In previous attempt, I was at 1322 +29cpt at the same point. Research is up one tech (printing press).

 

[LulThyme]

By comparing to some of my games, I think youre heading for 1450-1500.
Some notes:
You have a coastal tile for a non-coastal start, thats bad but onyl 1.
I also notice your temple date is pretty late, did you only build a warrior before?
Again Colosseum and Cathedral took 2 turns.
It takes practice, but you need to make it 1 turn.
Oh yeah something else.
It might not seem like it, but its often best to build MoM BEFORE great Library to trigger Golden Age at that point.
It depends on situation, but sometimes it actually produces more culture that way, and can help for Middle Age research, and money to buy Coll, Cath etc...
At this point, you really have to start thinking about Shakespeare, try and figure out how many turns to the tech (take university into account) and try and finish everything so you dont get it much after that, because its the critical wonder, and have all your tiles upgraded and workers ready to join city.

What did you get on Middle Age?
Engineering and Mono + theology for you? (that would be pretty lucky)
If youre very lucky, theyll learn feudalism before you have to do it yourself.
I usually give them litt and repu if they dont have it, to make sure they are all reserach it, and also to help them get it (even at chieftain, scis will build libraries from time to time)

 

[Denniz]

By comparing to some of my games, I think youre heading for 1450-1500.
Some notes:

First of all, let me say that I am amazed at your ability to analyze what I did from the dates.

>>You have a coastal tile for a non-coastal start...
My bad. I had the wrong starting position in the pic. I started NE on coast not East. I fixed the pic. Call it a "senior" moment.

>>I also notice your temple date is pretty late...
One warrior and then temple. I still irrigated and roaded one of the cows first. I don't remember if I was done in time to chop to speed it up. I think I did chop afterward to speed it up. The settler after, too. How much sooner should I be?

>>Colosseum and Cathedral took 2 turns... build MoM BEFORE great Library to trigger Golden Age at that point...
I was cash short. I had to set science to 10% for a few turns to get them done in 2 each with partial rushes. I don't remember but I think I was size 12 by then. I didn't notice that MoM could trigger GA. It was only 2cpt so I ignored it. The GL triggered GA was a surprise in the first game. Usually I trigger my GA with a unit...

>>What did you get on Middle Age?
I got engineering. I brought everyone up to MA one got engineering and two got Theo. In hindsight, I probably should have given them the MA techs too so they would each get something new. DUH! I'll have to remember that for IA.

>>I usually give them litt and repu...
I gave them all republic. I didn't consider lit but that makes sense. They have surprised me before with a couple unexpected researched techs.

>>At this point, you really have to start thinking about Shakespeare
Oh I am. I am hoping that Sistine's turns out to be a prebuild. It is going to be close. I have 16 turns. If I can get 4 turns research on one more and at least 5 turns on the other two then I'm in.

Actually, after looking at it. I might be better off switching to HG (3 turns to complete) then Univ and then restart Sistine for the prebuild. That gives me more culture and I won't waste shields. Of course, I only have 115g so I will have to work on that before Univ. I guess slowing research a little for cash would be a good trade off. I am going to hold off play more until tonight.

 

[LulThyme]

Yes, dont be afraid to waste some research for money, if thats the only way you can manage one turn for cath, coll, university etc...
This is the only way you can speed up your production, barring SGLs.

The temple date, if you include a warrior should be maybe 3150 so its just a very small difference I was just wondering if you did 2 warriors or maybe something else entirely.

Golden Age becomes a pretty important thing to think about in these games.
With the Babs, Pyramids cover the Religious aspect, so its either UU or Great Library of MoM. there is no way to efficiently delay it, as Great Library is so good, but you wouldnt want to anyway.
In general the earliest is better.
I Do try in general to wait till Im size 12 and in Republic, and nearing the Middle Ages.
I have never actually thought about using a UU in fact for these games cuz the wonder golden age is so early, but I might actually consider that now that I think about it sometimes, to Micromanage the exact turn on which it happens, if needed.

BTW would it possible to get a screenshot of actual position? to see rest of terrain, city placement, location of ivory and neighbours etc...

 

[Denniz]

BTW would it possible to get a screenshot of actual position? to see rest of terrain, city placement, location of ivory and neighbours etc...

No problem. I will post it when I get home from work. (about 5 hours from time of this post)

 

[BlackBetsy]

I was cash short. I had to set science to 10% for a few turns to get them done in 2 each with partial rushes. I don't remember but I think I was size 12 by then. I didn't notice that MoM could trigger GA. It was only 2cpt so I ignored it. The GL triggered GA was a surprise in the first game. Usually I trigger my GA with a unit...

You couldn't rush a worker then rush the building? This allows you the partial rush bonus in one turn. Rushing worker (10 shields) costs 80 (10 * 8), then rushing remaining building costs Number of Shields - 10 * 4. You can get a temple for Babylon for 160 gold instead of 240 gold this way. If you had the money to rush in 2 turns, you probably had the money to rush this way.

 

[LulThyme]

You couldn't rush a worker then rush the building? This allows you the partial rush bonus in one turn. Rushing worker (10 shields) costs 80 (10 * 8), then rushing remaining building costs Number of Shields - 10 * 4. You can get a temple for Babylon for 160 gold instead of 240 gold this way. If you had the money to rush in 2 turns, you probably had the money to rush this way.

Im pretty sure he was using this, or even better as I said earlier, disband a unit first.
The thing is you are going for max research so you are pretty cash strapped, and you have to do coll, cath uni in quick succesion

 

[BlackBetsy]

Im pretty sure he was using this, or even better as I said earlier, disband a unit first.
The thing is you are going for max research so you are pretty cash strapped, and you have to do coll, cath uni in quick succesion

Sounds like the MM thing to do here is have your units in place in Babylon the year the previous wonder completes and you know you're going to build the cathedral so you can disband them and either fully rush them that way or through a cheaper partial rush.

 

[Smirk]

About the temple, skip the warrior, and chop then you'll get this in the range of 3500, not an incredible difference, but this does two other things for you. One it expands your borders quicker, which may be imporant depending on your location, and two it gives you a content face so you can explore with your warrior longer, now this last point isn't as important in chief as it will become later. Although above all it speeds up the pace for everything to follow, the settler will get out faster and your wonders.

About the GA, I go for this much earlier with bows, but like Lul I want this after republic and 12 citizens in capital. I can easily get a few bows out in my other cities and then MoM is never a priority build thus is just a culture/shields concern.

Another suggestion, get the statue in there earlier, you need ivory and the further away it is the slower your pace will be. Now its not a deal breaker, Lul's games have closer ivory so has the statue earlier but its a big help. The disband for 10shields which is good if you save up a few, one turn library with 0 gold.

Oh yeah, about pyramids, I think I throw a game out if I don't get an early leader to rush this, because I do not want to build it. Ignoring that and keeping a game I wouldn't build this until much later. Its 100/1 which is okay, but its 400 of those which takes a lot more time, two 200 shield wonders with 2 culture each will generate more in the same time of production.

Science leaders are the biggest pain the in the ass for easy difficulty games, the high scores got them, so you have to, in order to compete.