Denniz's first HoF submission
- Thread starter Denniz
- Start date
I did disband a warrior for the first one and spent everything I had to get it to finish with normal production the next turn. The second one I let it produce one turn and then cash rushed enough of the remainder that it would finish the next turn. It was the best I could do with the amount of cash I had on hand and could earn at 10% science. I cash rushed a marketplace in there somewhere too.BlackBetsy said:
I built a couple Bows in the first game just for that reason. I didn't bother this time.Smirk said:
I think I will generate and future maps with ivory as a requirement.Smirk said:
In the first game I didn't build Pyramids until late. The was always something better to build. I did get a SGL later on, but I used it for something more useful.Smirk said:
I don't know. What if the game you drop were to get couple science leaders later. That might be enough to make up the difference if you could build Bach or the theater or both that way.Smirk said:
yes for sure thats one way to do it.BlackBetsy said:
Depends how many units vs how much cash you have.
Smirk made some nice comments:
my comments on his comments are :
Im still not sure about the chop.
First in many cases, I am food rich (I attribute this mainly to mapfinder not finding plains cows) and so forests are very important until I can replant them, which can be as late as after Shakespeare depending on luck in entering Middle Ages.
The worker also loses some important turns which loses growth.
I think Im going to test this on failed starts to see the difference.
I like your bowman idea, I have built MoM many times to trigger GA but I might just start using the bowman, I will have to think about this.
About ivory, I agree thats its important to have it, but I think having it with 8-10 squares is enough.
That allows you to put your 3rd city near it and build it around 1000 BC which is not that bad.
About SGLs, I think you can get very good games with very few of them.
I got a 1330 date on Chieftain with basically no SGL except Masonry and end of IA.
Pyramids is just too good early on, both for culture and general effect, and is expensive, so we agree that no early SGL is a killer, but with a good start, you can be very competitive with just 1 or maybe 2 well placed SGLs (end of ancient age, middle of middle age).
Lul: About forests, it may just be we select different map types, not only do I chop for the temple, I chop for the following settler.
I know what you mean about using forests and I typically leave a couple around, but I can always reforest. I would chop initially for their shield benefit alone, but also I like to chop grass tiles to see if I have a shieldland underneath (10s + 2f2s beats 1f2s). I consider two forests as an additional requirement for my starts.
(Edit: Forgot to add that I particularily like starts that are worker light, this does at least two things, one it let me waste turns doing things like chopping, or exploring, and two it allows me to join workers quicker.)
Denniz: I wouldn't try to use Mapfinder to get ivory, its pretty rare (in addition to what you may already be looking for, cattle) and as Lul said you do not need it in the direct area, you want it maybe 10-20 tiles away at a maximum. That gives you time to get your initial builds out of the way just in time to connect it. Of course you can always prebuild, one of my better games (Not the HOF entry) it ended up being too far away, actually I had to fight for it, and then building (rushing) harbors was faster.
So I lost all of those extra shields, and of course the culture.
Thats my point exactly, its costly and has little effect on your relatively shrimpy kingdom, thus it gets posponed until much later. Now it does have an effect, but while nice prolly doesn't equate to the cost of building it, thats why a leader is the way to go. Of course I don't dump a map after the first failed tech, but I like to get one within 20-40 turns, after that I would want to use the leader for something else and so I've missed my window of oppurtunity for pyramids.
I know what you mean about using forests and I typically leave a couple around, but I can always reforest. I would chop initially for their shield benefit alone, but also I like to chop grass tiles to see if I have a shieldland underneath (10s + 2f2s beats 1f2s). I consider two forests as an additional requirement for my starts.
(Edit: Forgot to add that I particularily like starts that are worker light, this does at least two things, one it let me waste turns doing things like chopping, or exploring, and two it allows me to join workers quicker.)
Denniz: I wouldn't try to use Mapfinder to get ivory, its pretty rare (in addition to what you may already be looking for, cattle) and as Lul said you do not need it in the direct area, you want it maybe 10-20 tiles away at a maximum. That gives you time to get your initial builds out of the way just in time to connect it. Of course you can always prebuild, one of my better games (Not the HOF entry) it ended up being too far away, actually I had to fight for it, and then building (rushing) harbors was faster.
So I lost all of those extra shields, and of course the culture.
Thats my point exactly, its costly and has little effect on your relatively shrimpy kingdom, thus it gets posponed until much later. Now it does have an effect, but while nice prolly doesn't equate to the cost of building it, thats why a leader is the way to go. Of course I don't dump a map after the first failed tech, but I like to get one within 20-40 turns, after that I would want to use the leader for something else and so I've missed my window of oppurtunity for pyramids.
yeah were probably not using same kind of map.
The good map mapfinder get me are almost always almost all grassland, with some hills and a few forest.
This is worker heavy compared to plains say (irrigate is faster than mine), and hills are long.
the plus side is that they have very good long term potential, specially if I can get a mountain or 2 to compensate for my too much food.
The other thing is that Im usually food rich so I need those forests.
But now that Im playing with scientific civs, I guess it will be very rare that I dont get engineering on entering MA so I could replant them pretty fast.
Ill have to try out a few games, see how it goes, how much chopping speeds up compared to irrigating cattles or something.
The good map mapfinder get me are almost always almost all grassland, with some hills and a few forest.
This is worker heavy compared to plains say (irrigate is faster than mine), and hills are long.
the plus side is that they have very good long term potential, specially if I can get a mountain or 2 to compensate for my too much food.
The other thing is that Im usually food rich so I need those forests.
But now that Im playing with scientific civs, I guess it will be very rare that I dont get engineering on entering MA so I could replant them pretty fast.
Ill have to try out a few games, see how it goes, how much chopping speeds up compared to irrigating cattles or something.
Much better, what difficulty are you playing now?
Quick question, did you rush Wall Street?
This section looks like it could be improved:
oracle -1125
library -1100
great library -630
There's a fine line there when you compare the high cost versus low cost when culture per shields are the same, however the 1000 year doubling can make on a higher priority. You can figure the math and tally this up, perhaps you have, but it may be something to think about.
Quick question, did you rush Wall Street?
This section looks like it could be improved:
oracle -1125
library -1100
great library -630
There's a fine line there when you compare the high cost versus low cost when culture per shields are the same, however the 1000 year doubling can make on a higher priority. You can figure the math and tally this up, perhaps you have, but it may be something to think about.
Still on Chieftan.Smirk said:
No. I was having trouble with the timing on ToE. Wall Street became available and could be finish with the prebuild relatively quickly and "reset" the clock on ToE. (I didn't do very well with trying for a MGL. I only had about 10 elite battle. I should have prioritized that earlier so I could get HE.)Smirk said:
I think you are suggesting that I should have switched the Oracle to GL. Culture per shield being the same then doubling the 6 cpt sooner would make up for any delay, right?Smirk said:
Denniz said:
Basically, not 100% sure on that though, just something to think about. However, something that will offer more improvement is to build that library the turn you learn literature, or have the great library prebuilding and completed on that turn, then rush the library the next. Although the faster your tech pace the more difficult this becomes.
My priority list, ignoring any freebies by way of leaders, looks a little like this: temple, settler, colossus, statue, library, great library. If you have the production and a slower tech pace you can prebuild for the great library and do the library afterwards. Nothing is ever quite clear cut in any game though. For instance I wouldn't have an problem say dropping a lot of prebuilt shields into a library if I happened to get a leader from literature, which I would rush the great library with the following turn. Doesn't happen much since I usually build the library on the turn I learn literature, that is if I go to lit first instead of the republic.
For comparison this was my timeline for the 1300AD win currently number 1 in chieftain (this is to 1000BC):
palace -4000
temple -3700
library -1200
pyramids -3050 leader
oracle -2590 leader
statue -1450
mausoleum -1250
great library -1225 leader
gardens -1000
This game had quite a bit of early luck by way of leaders, but I had some great production as well. (As an aside you'll note this was a non-coastal start, the start was so good I played it and it got better from there.) So, basically statue was built in place of the colossus and the mausoleum in place of statue (order that is). I most likely got a leader before the mausoleum completed and held it to rush the great library, then rushed the library the turn afterwards. Finishing the first 80 turns by hand building the gardens. This was an odd game because it was not coastal.
Note the 6 turn temple, thats from a chop. My typical start will get a temple in 10 turns without a chop, so thats average of 3 shields, game or plains cattle is all you need for that, both of which are high on my list for start selection.
Quick update. I finished GOTM41 and have generated 16 new maps.
Settings: Small,Chieftan, pangaea (70%), normal, wet, 5 billion with 5 opponents, Greece, Ottomans, Korea, Bzyantines, and Russia. Barbarian=Raging (w/Barb fix). I am pretty much following the same approach as my Tiny maps only uping the map size.
So far I have I played six of them long enough to decide if they good candidates. Of those only one seems worth contining. So far not a single SGL. I think I will play all of them before I try to take the good candidates to completion.
Settings: Small,Chieftan, pangaea (70%), normal, wet, 5 billion with 5 opponents, Greece, Ottomans, Korea, Bzyantines, and Russia. Barbarian=Raging (w/Barb fix). I am pretty much following the same approach as my Tiny maps only uping the map size.
So far I have I played six of them long enough to decide if they good candidates. Of those only one seems worth contining. So far not a single SGL. I think I will play all of them before I try to take the good candidates to completion.
