Department of General Musings

[Daghdha]

Is the entire agreement posted somewhere in our forum? it would be nice to view it one more time before it gets torched. I still feel that it is not valid anymore, and they don't necessarily need to be told that we consider it void.

Post 331 in this thread plus in gmail under "Agreements".

 

[grahamiam]

I agree on all points except needing 20GS SOD. We are already strong against them. Once we turn the repub trade and they go into anarchy, we hit them. They may have an archer or two but we should be able to march right through.

Perhaps they look weak due to an excessive number of Hoplites? If that's the case, then having more than 10 GS's would be prudent, no?

Per ProPain's Article:

The formulae used by the mil advisor are:
Units Strength (player 1) = Hitpoints * (1.5* AttackPoints + 1 * DefensePoints ) 0.175 * Bombard Points
Army Strength (player 1) = Sigma(1-n) Unit Strength (player 1)
ArmyStrenght(player 1) > (1.2) * ArmyStrength (player2) : Player 1 is rated strong
ArmyStrength (player 1) < (0.8)* ArmyStrength (player2) : Player 1 is rated weak
In between armies are rated average.

so, based on our current military, can anyone estimate how many Hoplites that MIA has in the worst case scenario?

 

[barbslinger]

After reading the agreements I feel that they have most likely violated 4 and 4a. Techs to other countries to be sold at monopoly beaker cost and that we shall approve any tech trade. #5 was moot UNLESS MIA discovered philo. We ended up having to research Repub. #6 - Sharing of techs when Repub is discovered. This I would like to keep in place. #7 is the real stickler. If we go with #6 we are pretty bound to #7.

Since MIA has already violated 4 and 4a plus if they got philo and violated this entire agreement is trash. The only problem is lack of techs. I propose going back to the drawing board with this agreement and stating that in light of MIA breaking the 4, 4a and possible 5 clauses we don't feel any of it is in force. We should then be able to trade Repub at monopoly to ALL teams, including MIA.
Then we get Repub, change govt's, deal Repub around to get near parity and hit MIA enough to extort the balance and gain an overwhelming edge in the game.

 

[Whomp]

I'd like an admin to give clarification on this topic. I contend neither of us is bound to peace based on the breaking of this agreement.

 

[Tubby Rower]

yup yup yup...

here is my attempt to see what is out there based off of our current military status

 

[Tubby Rower]

here is the excel file if anyone wants to play with the numbers. You should only have to change the number of units (only in our section and their warriors & curraphs). I'm assuming that they have no elite hopilites or any other units.

 

[Own]

Good number crunching, that will give us a good estimate. We're strong, right?

 

[Tubby Rower]

yes.. I might go back, if I have time tonight, and look at the previous saves to see when our situation went from average to strong and see what things looked like there. I'll try to figure out about the military strength in the F11 to see if I can get anything out of there too.

 

[Tubby Rower]

on turn 72 we were average and had

• 6 warriors averaging 3 hp each (4 regs, 1 wounded (2hp)reg and a full strength vet )
• 3 GS (1 reg, 1 vet and 1 1hp vet) totaling 8 hp = 2 vet GS
• 2 reg curraphs

on turn 73 we were strong and had

• 6 warriors for 19hp (5 regs, and a full strength vet )
• 3 GS (1 reg and 2 vet) totaling 11 hp
• 2 reg curraphs

here is the info from the above spreadsheet with the turn 73 data put in

MIA		120	<- our strength / 1.2
reg curraphs	2	15	
reg warriors		0	
vet warriors	2	20	
elite warriors	1	12.5	
		72.5	< remaining for hop.
			
total HP from hopilites	16		
if all regular	5		
if all vet	4

btw, on turn 73 our military service # was 3.548. That was calculated by using the formula of (# of military units / # of citizens) * 10. It's hard to figure out how much MIA has due to not knowing the pop of all of the cities.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

I think it's a good guess that they are currently focused on other things than hops, so them having 1 per city is a slight exaggeration at the moment, and for several turns on. And that's good enough for me

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

can we drop research for a few turn to get the money to investigate this

It's hard to figure out how much MIA has due to not knowing the pop of all of the cities.

 

[Daghdha]

Excellent work Tubby. A wandering warrior could do some pop scouting as soon as units are coming down from up north. A GS might spook them. I guess we could have all MIA cities scouted for pop in good time before the party...

 

[Tubby Rower]

One of the warriors in the lux cities (preferably the one in EWR) could move south. Cyprus creek just made another warrior and one of them should prolly go to EWR for barb protection.

 

[Daghdha]

One of the warriors in the lux cities (preferably the one in EWR) could move south. Cyprus creek just made another warrior and one of them should prolly go to EWR for barb protection.

I suggest they start the scouting assignment when back up has arrived. MAd. says Barbs are lurking in the Cyprus Creek area, that's why I changed from worker to warrior.

 

[Tubby Rower]

well a warrior is just now (turn 78) being produced in Cyprus Creek. I know that there are some barbs there and the GS built in Ignoramus should go down there and relieve the barbs from thier gold

 

[Kickbooti]

Did MIA trade overseas for anything less than the 'monopoly beaker cost?' And/or, did their tech trades invovle anything else?

If they did neither of those I don't think they broke the agreement.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think they are in the 'legal clear.' Which means, by my reading of the agreement, that if we anounce the end of peace on the turn we send Republic we have a ten turn waiting period.

If we do anything else, (as near as I can tell) we have to drop the 'honorable' off the idiots label.

If my read is wrong, and we want to remain the role of 'honorable' for the sake of future agreements with other parties, then I think we need someone to lay out the 'legal justification' for war and file it with MIA and the UN.

I am of the firm opinion that striking MIA when we have 10-12 GS ready is optimal. And if we have to stain our honor to do it, then it must be done. But if we do that we gain the PWE title with the other teams. Again, I'm not oppossed (the war will be fun), but I just want to make sure we have weighed the cost/benefit.

 

[Kickbooti]

If my reading of the MIA agreement is correct, then here is my proposed course of action.

1) Get their techs
2) Send Republic
3) On the turn IMMEDIATELY after the receipt of techs we anounce the ten-turn period that will end the peace.

4) We argue that we are simply concluding the agreement in every point (they won't beleive us ultimately, but it may buy a few turns worth of dithering).

5) They have a decision to make at that point. Go Republic and start researching, or stay in despotism indefinately.

6a) If they switch to Rep, the war will force them to switch back again - anarchy DURING the war.

6b) They stay in Despotism, we trade Republic overseas for Monarchy, we can stay in Republic as long as possible and gain in research and then switch to Monarchy without a hiccup to finish the war.



Excursus - 10 Turn Tactics:

I don't know this for a fact, but having the ten-turn clock ticking may be to our tactical advantage. If they can see a buildup (small) in the lux cities of the jungle, we could send our SOD along the coast to pillage their core, maybe even take a core city or two. Then swing back to the north to meet up with cats/spears and road. Just a point to ponder.

 

[barbslinger]

Excursus - 10 Turn Tactics:

I don't know this for a fact, but having the ten-turn clock ticking may be to our tactical advantage. If they can see a buildup (small) in the lux cities of the jungle, we could send our SOD along the coast to pillage their core, maybe even take a core city or two. Then swing back to the north to meet up with cats/spears and road. Just a point to ponder.

This falls right in line with my original plan of attack.

 

[Tubby Rower]

hmmm.. I just read the treaty....

Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status.

so if they don't give us everything then THEY are breaking the treaty.

Also

MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of Republic.

I have a question and a comment.

Question: is the This that is highlighted in the quote referring to the ending of peace or the notification? I would contend that it refers to the peace, but see how it could be the other way too.

Comment: We can hem and haw about the transfer of techs for a few turns. Conveniently "forget" to send or accept something.this should by some time. But I'm with Booti, I'd like to keep honor in this. 18 turns from now is better than 28 turns from now. Who knows, after we tell them that the peace will not be assured in 10 turns they might make a first strike on an "undefended" worker. But that would be acting too much like an AI wouldn't it?

 

[Whomp]

A broken treaty is a broken treaty right? If one part of it is broken the whole treaty is broken. Poly is the missing piece if they don't deliver.

Honoring agreements is very important to me, as is in the SG world we live in, so having one of the admins give us their interpretation is of utmost importance.

It's the difference between attacking MIA or attacking TNT IMO.