Deranged navy

[janat08]

Because AI can't tell what's going unless you make an appearance of gimped ranged unit, before scuttling away as there're tactics to play out at sea- that is worthless for absence of means of like meaning.

 

[janat08]

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ai-military-tactics-thoughts.626111/page-3
The thread that explains how AI is screwed deep. Essentially more vision makes AI try really hard >, although there're special senses for barbarian camps/wonders.

 

[janat08]

Why is hit and run even important, a sight of 3/4 of air recon (reveals map on turn end therefore is commited to supposedly lasting memory) wouldn't be terribly demaning on AI and the air recon promotion is already made and mothballed somewhere.

 

[Gazebo]

You've clearly taken the wrong lessons from the AI tactics threads. Extra recon isn't going to make much if any of a difference for the AI.

Also, what a poll. Do you work for the White House?

G

 

[Emufarmers]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. What is it you're suggesting should be changed?

 

[CrazyG]

You do realize that ranged ships can move after attacking? Its not nearly as restrictive as it sounds, I would play a few games with.

If someone says they haven't played the mod, like at all, its hard to take suggestions seriously.

 

[lunker]

I really miss shooting inland 2 cells but I much prefer the current ranged ship mechanics.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I really miss shooting inland 2 cells but I much prefer the current ranged ship mechanics.

@Gazebo, what if ranged ships had a promotion called Bombardment or something that affected land units within two tiles of them, and did a few damage every turn or caused a debuff ala feared elephant? Then we have the representation of inland bombardment without fiddling with the range.

 

[tu_79]

@Gazebo, what if ranged ships had a promotion called Bombardment or something that affected land units within two tiles of them, and did a few damage every turn or caused a debuff ala feared elephant? Then we have the representation of inland bombardment without fiddling with the range.

Cruisers are far too mobile, they can gang up easily against any unit that gets too near to the coast, with little fear of retaliation, except from an enemy fleet. Letting them strike 2 inland, sometimes 3 (with range promotion), and retreat is overpowered. My worst game was one with little iron where I could only build 3-4 cruisers, but otherwise, once you have your navy, you can take on anyone.

With range 1, defender can at least deploy a line of siege units and keep navies at a distance. Your army can set food on the coast, which is much better than not being able to set foot and wait for a ranged hit while embarked.

Arguably, Artillery is overpowered too, but it has a penalty against land units and is much slower.

 

[Deadstarre]

You've clearly taken the wrong lessons from the AI tactics threads. Extra recon isn't going to make much if any of a difference for the AI.

Also, what a poll. Do you work for the White House?

G

I really hate to bump this thread but in the tactics thread Ilteroi was actually pretty clear to say he was rather uncertain about what benefits giving the AI more vision would yield, he literally said he didn't know how the AI would handle it whether competently or not. Someone asked him to consider testing it, and he in turn asked them to test it. You seem confident to make a determination now though that it wouldn't make any difference for them, does that mean you did some testing?

 

[janat08]

Yes, air recon promotion would be perfect if it revealed map before unit could die allowing ai to zerg less by changing posture.

 

[Gazebo]

I really hate to bump this thread but in the tactics thread Ilteroi was actually pretty clear to say he was rather uncertain about what benefits giving the AI more vision would yield, he literally said he didn't know how the AI would handle it whether competently or not. Someone asked him to consider testing it, and he in turn asked them to test it. You seem confident to make a determination now though that it wouldn't make any difference for them, does that mean you did some testing?

I did. It did nothing of note. Diminishing returns for major slowdown.

 

[Gazebo]

Yes, air recon promotion would be perfect if it revealed map before unit could die allowing ai to zerg less by changing posture.

You really aren’t reading all of this, are you?

 

[janat08]

You really aren’t reading all of this, are you?

Some one said AI doesn't entirely react to newly discovered units. I say remove fire and run, 3 sight, and no range promotion.

 

[nekokon]

Cruisers are far too mobile, they can gang up easily against any unit that gets too near to the coast, with little fear of retaliation, except from an enemy fleet. Letting them strike 2 inland, sometimes 3 (with range promotion), and retreat is overpowered. My worst game was one with little iron where I could only build 3-4 cruisers, but otherwise, once you have your navy, you can take on anyone.

With range 1, defender can at least deploy a line of siege units and keep navies at a distance. Your army can set food on the coast, which is much better than not being able to set foot and wait for a ranged hit while embarked.

Arguably, Artillery is overpowered too, but it has a penalty against land units and is much slower.

To be honest with high mobility, giving ranged ship 1 range only slow them down a bit. They only need 7 movements to be able to dive in and out without taking a hit, which isn't that hard to acquire.
Can we go back to my suggestion about allowing range units to set up point defense (when fortified there's a chance to do reduced dmg to enemies whenever they got into range or attack when within range, even in their own turn) to prevent abusing hit and run tactic ?
The mechanic is similar to AA gun's interception so it shouldn't take that much work.
Pleaseeeeeee (with a capital P)

 

[tu_79]

To be honest with high mobility, giving ranged ship 1 range only slow them down a bit. They only need 7 movements to be able to dive in and out without taking a hit, which isn't that hard to acquire.
Can we go back to my suggestion about allowing range units to set up point defense (when fortified there's a chance to do reduced dmg to enemies whenever they got into range or attack when within range, even in their own turn) to prevent abusing hit and run tactic ?
The mechanic is similar to AA gun's interception so it shouldn't take that much work.
Pleaseeeeeee (with a capital P)

If you have cruisers with 7 movement, you really commited to naval warfare and you deserve the victory. Then you can only be stopped with another sizeable fleet.

 

[Tekamthi]

Cruisers are far too mobile, they can gang up easily against any unit that gets too near to the coast, with little fear of retaliation, except from an enemy fleet. Letting them strike 2 inland, sometimes 3 (with range promotion), and retreat is overpowered. My worst game was one with little iron where I could only build 3-4 cruisers, but otherwise, once you have your navy, you can take on anyone.

consider earlier/cheaper "minefield" effect to mitigate this?

 

[Deadstarre]

I did. It did nothing of note. Diminishing returns for major slowdown.

Owing to slowdown i'm guessing what you looked at was the air recon thing then. last question as this is something I planned to check into myself, do you think high movement units having the Sentry promotion would benefit them? boats and horses specifically, but especially boats since there is no terrain interference. To be clear I dont think all boats/horses should just now start with a free Sentry, but where the AI is concerned I wonder if the best use of a first promotion for them wouldnt be picking Sentry over shock/drill or the boat equivalents. It would lead to a small combat strength advantage to player, but if it benefited their tactics or helped them avoid suicide missions I think it'd be worth the tradeoff

 

[Jarula]

If he was working for the white house he would propose all naval matches be resolved by button jousting competition.

 

[pineappledan]

I’m ambivalent towards the reduction in range to cruisers, but i’m really unimpressed with the decision to put battleships to range 1. Battleships are an exceptionally late tech and their primary utility, both in-game and IRL is fire-support, bombardment and establishing beachheads. We have subs for the ship-to-ship damage.

Real Iowa class battleships could fire 12-inch shells accurately up to 10 km. Having that represented by a 1 range unit that is contemporary to 3 range artillery is absurdity.

In light of this, I have compiled a few ideas w.r.t. naval ranged units, specifically battleships:

• Keep cruiser range 1, raise battleship to 2. Make range promo exclusive to cruisers and battleships
• Give battleships a penalty vs domain against naval targets. Make it clear these are sea-to-land units

Then pick 1 of 4:

• Ranged attacks consume 2 movement instead of 1

Or

• Naval cruisers and battleships have to set up to attack, like vanilla siege units

Or

• Cruiser and battleships are given a “shelling” promotion, which only allows them to fire at their full range if they have not moved that turn. Otherwise they are restricted to 1 range.

Or

• Deep ocean tiles are designated as features (like hill and forest). Feature does not affect movement, but affects range and vision. All units capable of crossing deep ocean are given air recon 2-3, so deep ocean does not obstruct vision, but still restricts firing distance. Naval units can fire on coastal and land tiles at higher ranges, but are all restricted to 1 range on the high seas.

The last option is the most complex, but my favourite. This way, deep ocean is “shrunk down”, and recontextualized as representing larger distances, while naval units can still interact with land targets competently