Design: Civics

[QES]

QES, I like your ideas on Caste System vs Guilds (both drastic and less drastic) and City States (though, why not increase War Weariness instead of decrease Military production?).

- Niilo

Because there are a lot of other civics that do that. It seemed like a "tired" responce. Plus civilians in city states dont "hate being at war" more than other types of nations, what they hate is having a centralized authority tell them what to do. When the greeks fought the persians, it was a B@#% to get them to cooperate together, but none of them were really "anti-war" with persia. It was more of a question of "how" not if/why. Athens finally won out with its ideas of using the Sea's and devoting their resources to shipbuilding, instead of fighting on land. They won the war because of it, but it was a hassle to convince people to do it.

The Negative production is a representation of this "sort" of hassle. The "ill do it but i wont like it" mentality.
-Qes

 

[vorshlumpf]

Ah, I see. Good explanation.

- Niilo

 

[Kael]

Just FYI: I've read QES and Vorshlumpf's posts and Im noodling on making changes. Its excellent feedback but I haven't decided what I am going to do yet.

 

[QES]

Just FYI: I've read QES and Vorshlumpf's posts and Im noodling on making changes. Its excellent feedback but I haven't decided what I am going to do yet.

I think the easiest thing to change immediately is Monarchy and Military Disapline: Maybe for .15

Monarchy could have 100% GP growth in Capital, and 25% GP growth in all other cities (Monarchy taking a personal interest in great people)

And then Add the "Each unit provides one happy person" benefit to military disapline. (People being taught to accept the military presence)
-Qes

P.S. I'd use both A LOT more often if this change was made.

 

[Maniac]

Arete (Runes of Kilmorph only)
I'm not big on GP, but I'll use this if I'm worshipping Kilmorph - until a better civic comes along.

Same here. Arete is the only religious civic I haven't used the entire game. Is this intentional? Weakening Caste System would keep Arete more attractive though.

 

[Jono]

I still think the Pyramids should be changed from labour back to goverment. The problem was that AI always went for Republic, but now you can change how the AI thinks... You see where I'm going with this? And there are the religious labour civics (Arete is underpowered though).

 

[vorshlumpf]

I liked being able to get Caste System in my last game when I built Pyramids. I'm not saying this is reason to keep it the same - just sharing my limited experience with the thing.

An update to my previous, super-long review of civics: I finally used some that I hadn't before in my last game. The main one was Mercantilism. I found out first-hand that I could actually make more money over Foreign Trade since I had no one who would open their borders to me. It then just became a choice between the extra money from Mercantilism and the extra culture and non-angry people from Foreign Trade.

As well, being the Order and having all war break out with no end in sight, I switched to the militaristic civics: Social Order, Military State, Theocracy, and Military Discipline. They all seemed to combine fairly well. I chose against Conquest as my Overloaded vault allowed me to pump out troops whenever I needed them and I decided to keep some cash flow in exchange for the +2 XP.

One thing that's kinda bothered me since starting FfH, though, is the unhappiness caused by Foreign Trade. I don't quite see the justification and would appreciate someone providing me with something to explain it. I can understand the unhappiness caused by Republic. Your people find out there is some empire out there that actually allows the citizens (if only the richest citizens) have a say in government, and decide they'd like to have the same say in theirs. But, Foreign Trade? They are unhappy because they are not allowed to trade with foreigners? Seems weak. I can maybe understand if the merchant class of citizen had considerable power, and influenced people to be unhappy, but at the beginning of the game when I'm still trying to research Agriculture (the AI typically gets Trade by this time) I find it hard to believe foreign trade is much of a concern for anyone.

Thoughts?

- Niilo

 

[Sureshot]

Ya, the foreign trade thing bothers me all the time, it makes me dread the Trade tech, and i avoid getting it.

I can see some justification for it, by saying "no foreign trade" you're basically forcing your people to remain isolationist. But it makes me not like getting Trade. Plus it usually causes me to lose gold.

 

[QES]

Ya, the foreign trade thing bothers me all the time, it makes me dread the Trade tech, and i avoid getting it.

I can see some justification for it, by saying "no foreign trade" you're basically forcing your people to remain isolationist. But it makes me not like getting Trade. Plus it usually causes me to lose gold.

I like this little function, its a True "choice". Do i want happy people and culture? Or do i want money. Normally i want money, but i may not be able to afford the general uprisings that would follow with mercantilsm or some other form of economy. Foreign trade is a WONDERFULLY balanced civic, especially considering other options. An unusual combo is the foriegn trade and sacrifice the weak, you get your money to equal out, with a culture boost (of evil?) but have generally unhealthy (but happy) citizens. It seems a "rough and tumble" sort of life, arrrr, the pirates life for me.
-Qes

 

[vorshlumpf]

I disagree that FT is balanced. FT gives you culture, money (extra trade routes), and makes other people deal with unhappiness. All of that for Low upkeep? Whenever I like something a lot, like FT, I think long and hard about its balance.

The only time I go for anything else is when I'm elves and Fellowship, making Guardian worthwhile (and appropriate), or if everyone in the game has closed their borders to me, making Mercantilism useful.

But, perhaps FT is part of the double-win theme? It would just seem odd to have such a civic so early in the game.

Ya, the foreign trade thing bothers me all the time, it makes me dread the Trade tech, and i avoid getting it.

Are you saying that you don't experience unhappiness if you haven't researched the appropriate tech, yet? I'm sure that I was getting the unhappiness in my last game, and it was before I had the tech . . .

- Niilo

 

[QES]

I disagree that FT is balanced. FT gives you culture, money (extra trade routes), and makes other people deal with unhappiness. All of that for Low upkeep? Whenever I like something a lot, like FT, I think long and hard about its balance.

The only time I go for anything else is when I'm elves and Fellowship, making Guardian worthwhile (and appropriate), or if everyone in the game has closed their borders to me, making Mercantilism useful.

But, perhaps FT is part of the double-win theme? It would just seem odd to have such a civic so early in the game.


Are you saying that you don't experience unhappiness if you haven't researched the appropriate tech, yet? I'm sure that I was getting the unhappiness in my last game, and it was before I had the tech . . .

- Niilo

Yeah the unhappiness results from someone elses use of the civic, it has nothing to do with the tech.

I dont often use foreign trade, because of the hit to the economy. THe "trade routes" do NOT make up for a -10% gold in all cities. A trade route MIght bring in 5 gold if its a good route. But this is not often the case, and when your losing 1 gold for every two routes (gross, not net) it can hurt. Whenever i switch TO forien trade, i am earning less than i had previously. Foriegn trade for me, is only used when i want culture, and/or less unhappiness. If i want money, mercantilism or even agriculture are better.
-Qes

 

[SchpailsMan]

Trade routes don't only yield gold. They yield commerce, so even though your gold may get down, your science actually goes up. That is, unless it makes you decrease the slider by 10%, but then it usually balances itself.

 

[QES]

Trade routes don't only yield gold. They yield commerce, so even though your gold may get down, your science actually goes up. That is, unless it makes you decrease the slider by 10%, but then it usually balances itself.

Yeah, i hate moving my slider . Its actually quite hard to know what the "best possible yeild" is. It feels like the higher the slider the more research that's done. But if i boost research, then drop the slider, does it equal out? I feel like it might ALMOST equal out, but the slider is still the best source of ANY generation (culture included)
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

Are you saying that you don't experience unhappiness if you haven't researched the appropriate tech, yet? I'm sure that I was getting the unhappiness in my last game, and it was before I had the tech . . .

- Niilo

If you're the first to discover it it causes the trouble. I don't think its:
You get unhappiness if someone has the civic chosen and you don't.
I think it's:
You get unhappiness if the tech is researched (by anyone) and you don't have it chosen.

I usually always play Deity|RagingBarbs|NoTechTrade|Classical so Trade is pretty much available right off (and on brief examination looks like it'd improve my economy - but sadly no, since it usually adds an unhappy person and forces me into FT, which lowers my income), and the AI's don't usually pick it right off so many years pass before it comes up, and then i accidently pick it thinking its good


Also, -10% gold is worse than the gains i think, since +1 trade route per city (is that what it gives?), usually is worth less than 10% of your gold even on 100% science output. It probably depends on how many routes and such you have to other civs, but i usually still have rampaging barbs destroying all my improvements and my trade routes aren't too impressive.

 

[TheJopa]

Changelog:
Halved culture garrison in city states.
Good but it wont solve problem, in fact it makes them weaker...
I suggest removing culture penalty, changing to -25% gold instead commerce and remove distant maintenance completely (-100% instead -80%)

 

[Sureshot]

Changelog:
Halved culture garrison in city states.
Good but it wont solve problem, in fact it makes them weaker...
I suggest removing culture penalty, changing to -25% gold instead commerce and remove distant maintenance completely (-100% instead -80%)

I like that idea, i can't say i've ever chosen city states without immediately regretting it.

 

[Kael]

Changelog:
Halved culture garrison in city states.
Good but it wont solve problem, in fact it makes them weaker...
I suggest removing culture penalty, changing to -25% gold instead commerce and remove distant maintenance completely (-100% instead -80%)

I also removed the -25% gold, I will update the changelog. I want to keep the culture penalty, I just dont see that a city states government could project as unified a culture as other government forms.

 

[Sureshot]

The culture issue is a hard one to decide. In city states I imagine each city would have its own culture, and unique culture would increase a cities culture rate. But, I can see how then cities culture within the empire would compete with each other (in the same way different civilizations compete culturally).

So, I could understand culture being less or more, to tell the truth. More because of unique city culture (like the way a palace gives culture, there'd be a mini-palace in each city so to speak), and less because of cultural competition between cities. Ideally it'd be more but with competition, but that would be more complicated then it's worth and less culture seems the best fit solution.

Maybe there could be a great person % increase? something just seems a little wrong about less culture for city states, when in some ways you'd expect more ingenuity in the city given it's self governed status.

 

[vorshlumpf]

If you're the first to discover it it causes the trouble. I don't think its:
You get unhappiness if someone has the civic chosen and you don't.
I think it's:
You get unhappiness if the tech is researched (by anyone) and you don't have it chosen.

Are you sure? When you mouse-over the civics, the game lists the benefits and detriments of them. One of the benefits of FT and Republic is that it causes unhappiness in all other civs (i.e., "+1 Trade routes per city, -10% Gold, +20% Culture, Penalty for all Civs without Foreign Trade"). If it was just the tech being researched, then why doesn't the description of the appropriate techs list an unhappiness modifier?

Maybe if I'm motivated later, I'll find out for sure what the situation is. Heck, I'll do that now.

Hmm, interesting. In CIV4CivicInfos.xml each civic has a iCivicPercentAnger value to set this sort of unhappiness. First, I'd have to say that this confirms the unhappiness is caused by adopting the civic, and not by researching the tech.

Second, I find it interesting that Republic is set to 100% and Foreign Trade is set to 200%. Two hundred?! Yikes, no wonder the FT unhappiness is so rampant. Is this on purpose? If so, there is even more need to have an in-game explanation for it.

- Niilo

 

[Sureshot]

Hmm.. i might have been misled due to the fact my experience with it involved a team game with AI's and one of them must of have chosen it when we discovered it.. i'll kill them!!!!!!!11