Design: Civilizations

Chalid said:
About the Undead. I do not like the undead to be a seperate Civ. Therer has to be a leading mind behind them and undeadth is covered nicely by the death sphere.
I would like it much more if undead was a way your mages treat your People... For example right now you can get three additional Archmages when you turn your first three archmages into Liches. This concept seems intersting for other units as well.
Maybe we could add additional Death mana only units (Necromancer) that would require death mana to be built (diplomatic penalty!) and allow to turn other units into undeads as well. So you could turn your Axemen into Undead Axmen and so forth. The Advantage could be that undead units would not cost any financial support, but they would all have the undead promotion and be easy targest for destroy unded spells and undead slaying units. Maybe they would have otehr advantages/disadvantages as well.

Sure, makes sense, I was thinking of undead along the lines of Garth nix's "sabriel" series and George R.R. Martins 'others' in his "game of Thrones" series. The undead as ruled by some sort of unnatural force, or even another demon.

Maybe it could work as a 2nd barb race? Like orcs/lizzard men would spawn in jungles and forests, and the undead would spawn in the ice/tundra?

Oh well, that's my pitch, thanks for replying.

The Death node enabled units sounds great. You should be forced to build some sort of additional building to make/convert them. You would also want to be able to build wonders that would give all units built in that city a 'race' specific slaying ability. Maybe undead untis could be rushed at a -50% :gold: cost with a -1 str penalty? I always think of the undead as swarming.
 
Chalid said:
The clue here is that the Clan of Embers is not a orc civ but more or less the unification of Nonhumen races, orcs, ogres, goblins, lizardmen, whatever Pseudohuman we find.

So there is nothing that speaks against an extra Race of Lizardmen that are Seperate from the Clans of Ember. We might try to flesh out the other civs some more before we think about adding additional ones i thin.

About the Undead. I do not like the undead to be a seperate Civ. Therer has to be a leading mind behind them and undeadth is covered nicely by the death sphere.
I would like it much more if undead was a way your mages treat your People... For example right now you can get three additional Archmages when you turn your first three archmages into Liches. This concept seems intersting for other units as well.
Maybe we could add additional Death mana only units (Necromancer) that would require death mana to be built (diplomatic penalty!) and allow to turn other units into undeads as well. So you could turn your Axemen into Undead Axmen and so forth. The Advantage could be that undead units would not cost any financial support, but they would all have the undead promotion and be easy targest for destroy unded spells and undead slaying units. Maybe they would have otehr advantages/disadvantages as well.

Ive been intentionally keeping out as this discussion, just seeing where it goes and reading with interest. In the end I agree with everything Chalid said above.

Specifically:

1. Just as Chalid said the Clan of Embers is a grouping of non-human "monster" races. In FfH lore they all have a common ancestery but are more prone to mutation (seeing a much wider range of divergence between generations) and therefor adaption into the various environments and forms.

2. The point above is the "lore stuff" and Im perfectly willing to toss it out if it makes the mod better. We are not attempting to recreate my D&D game, we are trying to make the best Civ4 mod we can. There are no sacred cows. I include the point above just to give a little reasoning for why they were put together.

3. I dont have much desire for new civs right now. Mostly because I feel like we have so much work left to do on the existing civs. Until they are complete I doubt we will see more. In game terms this means that "Light" is probably closed to civ additions, but I would be willing to consider them in later phases. (Woodelf this is a task you, you will be there when we put together a build list for the next versions, bring this up).

4. Specifically for the lizardmen, I dont see a functional need. What is it that makes them different? The water travel is neat, but I think it will be spoiled if it is used to frequently. In fact I think we are in danger of robbing the Lanun of their designed sea mastery if we bring in a race that is better at it than they are. It seems like we are designing from the flavor (we like the idea of lizardmen so we are trying to design a civ around them, instead of having a design need to fill). I must admit, the lizardmen models that C.Roland made do look awfully cool and beg to be used as something more than what they are.

5. The best place I would see lizardmen being used would be in the "Shadow" phase as one of the Wilderness inhabitants. As a jungle or island dweller.


As for the undead civ, again I agree completly with Chalid. I like the idea of a unit that requires Death magic to create, a Necromancer sounds perfect. But we may want to consider a different mechanic than passing the undead promotion to the units, which seems to be a little close to the vampire mechanic. I thought about a necromancer before but i havent been able to think of a satifactory mechanic for him.

I like the idea of an undead army but I dont know what would functionally describe it, what are its penalty's and strengths? In fact that question is a big one for me right now with all of the races. I want to add effects to the various racial promotions, we just need to figure out what they are.
 
I like the idea of an undead army but I dont know what would functionally describe it, what are its penalty's and strengths? In fact that question is a big one for me right now with all of the races. I want to add effects to the various racial promotions, we just need to figure out what they are.
Well the strengths could be increased movement, since undead don't need rest they can walk/run day and night. Another strength could be immune to disease or slightly increased strength.

Weaknesses could be decreased healing, since the body is dead and can't regrow. Another weakness could be adverse reaction to life magic and perhaps fire.

As for how to create undead, instead of a necromancer unit you could use either a building that allows you to promote units or you could have it so that a unit can only be made undead if its standing on a death mana node.
 
Snif !
No lizardmen....:sad:
 
Kael said:
1. Just as Chalid said the Clan of Embers is a grouping of non-human "monster" races. In FfH lore they all have a common ancestery but are more prone to mutation (seeing a much wider range of divergence between generations) and therefor adaption into the various environments and forms.
I've been wondering, where is the FfH lore coming from? D&D or something else? Some campaign or what?
Thanks
 
butmenotman said:
I've been wondering, where is the FfH lore coming from? D&D or something else? Some campaign or what?
Thanks

Welcome to the CFC first off. Secondly, I think most or all of this lore is coming from Kael's somewhat demented mind. :)
 
Here are my ideas to the Malakim:

Theme: Vision. The Svartalfar hide information, the Malakim obtains it, not through subtefurge, but through increased vision capabilities.

Unique mechanics:

Tellings of the Sun: This power creates a Beacon of Light in any square of the map. The Beacon cannot be attacked, but can be dispelled/banished as any other summoned being. This becon has the vison upgrades, visibility and radaisthesis, and is immobile. A Diviner/Oracle can only have a Beacon active each time. The Diviner cannot cast the Beacon in a square in the Hell or in a Hidden realm. The Oracle cannot cast it only in a square of the Dark Hell. If it is unbalanced we can add a gold maintance cost to each beacon.
Radiasthesis: The unit with this promotion can see if there is a hidden resource in it's vision radius and where it is. It doesn't reveal which resource it is.
Visibility II: Gives +1 to the vision radius of the unit.

Unique Units:
Diviner/Oracle (Mage/Archmage): Magic user that can use the Tellings of the Sun power.
Twilight Wanderer (Shadow): A subtefurge unit which specializes in killing other subtefurge units. Can see stealth units.
Eclipse Corps (Saboteur): A subtefurge units quite efficient in hindering the enemy production. It have a lot of sinergy with all the information the Malakim gathers. It can only be build in the Palace.

Twists:
All recon units start with Visibily I and can buy the Radiasthesis promotion.
The Malakim diplomacy values highly it's World Map.
The Malakim Palace dispels all the FOW in the realms cultural borders.
Each desert square in a city's big cross gives a bonus to that city happiness. The Malakim have a food bonus from the oasis.

Gameplay:
Builder: The Radiosthesis promotion allow the realm to place it's cities in the best locations and guarantte the acess to rare resources in the future. Radiosthesis has a lot of sinerg with creative.
Military: All the information about the enemy enable them to fine tune their military to better counter their enemy.
 
bebematos said:
Here are my ideas to the Malakim:

Theme: Vision. The Svartalfar hide information, the Malakim obtains it, not through subtefurge, but through increased vision capabilities.

Unique mechanics:

Tellings of the Sun: This power creates a Beacon of Light in any square of the map. The Beacon cannot be attacked, but can be dispelled/banished as any other summoned being. This becon has the vison upgrades, visibility and radaisthesis, and is immobile. A Diviner/Oracle can only have a Beacon active each time. The Diviner cannot cast the Beacon in a square in the Hell or in a Hidden realm. The Oracle cannot cast it only in a square of the Dark Hell. If it is unbalanced we can add a gold maintance cost to each beacon.
Radiasthesis: The unit with this promotion can see if there is a hidden resource in it's vision radius and where it is. It doesn't reveal which resource it is.
Visibility II: Gives +1 to the vision radius of the unit.

Unique Units:
Diviner/Oracle (Mage/Archmage): Magic user that can use the Tellings of the Sun power.
Twilight Wanderer (Shadow): A subtefurge unit which specializes in killing other subtefurge units. Can see stealth units.
Eclipse Corps (Saboteur): A subtefurge units quite efficient in hindering the enemy production. It have a lot of sinergy with all the information the Malakim gathers. It can only be build in the Palace.

Twists:
All recon units start with Visibily I and can buy the Radiasthesis promotion.
The Malakim diplomacy values highly it's World Map.
The Malakim Palace dispels all the FOW in the realms cultural borders.
Each desert square in a city's big cross gives a bonus to that city happiness. The Malakim have a food bonus from the oasis.

Gameplay:
Builder: The Radiosthesis promotion allow the realm to place it's cities in the best locations and guarantte the acess to rare resources in the future. Radiosthesis has a lot of sinerg with creative.
Military: All the information about the enemy enable them to fine tune their military to better counter their enemy.

Nice writeup. I really like the idea for an ability that lets you detect resources early. I will have to see how possible that is.

I also like the beacon ability. I think I will add them both to the wish list for sun spells (the sun sphere is the Malakim specific sphere when it gets checked in).

I don't like giving the Malakim buffed shadow/saboteur units because it is against their theme. Thats probably where the Malakim will be weaker than normal. But outside of that I really like your ideas.
 
I am really glad you liked the ideas,

The Twilight Wanderer isn't a buffed Shadow, it does not have the Shadow abilities, only the invisble abitity, it is a subtefurge unit slayer.

The Eclipse Corps is a try to give the Malakim a dark side. What would a country do ith the volume of information they accumulate? A unit like the Eclipse Corps is my guess. It quite benevolent, it "only" hinders enemy production. It allows the Malakim to use all of insider information directly without going in a war. We can ban the use of all other subtefurge units to the Malakim, to preserve it's flavor. The malakimish society don't know about the corps, they are direct linked to Varn, so they are only build in the Malakim Palace.
 
A couple of thoughs about the Sheaim, mostly for the feel of it-
How about a UU that replaces prophet, called Raving Madman? In another player's city, they can be sacrificed like prophets but give -5 culture and one unhappy person for one turn, or if prophecy of Ragnarok has been created (by anyone), -10 cult. & +1 unhappy for 2 turns. These are not holy men urging people to call on the gods, but people who got a glimpse of the Sheaim's plans of destruction and seek to warn the world, but only end up annoying them.
And an Apocalyptic Trait, to supplement a current leader or for a third, that gives +25% production for Armeggeddon spells and madmen. (or prophets if put on a non-Sheim leader)
 
As Sheaim is in the table, here is some ideas about Sheaim.

Sheaim:
Theme: Immediate power in exchange for a more stable power base. The sheaim is a greed culture.

Unique mechanics:
-Bound Demon (promotion): The unit with this promotion bounds the demon it defeats in combat. The demon gains the bounded promotion and switch to the winner's side. Bounded demons cannot be bounded by another side. The number of bounded demons you can control is limited by the number of Pact Pillar you control. It estimulates the Sheaim to enter the Hell to "harvest".
-Betrayal of the Flesh (power): When this power is activated it gains +100% strengh, but it turns in a salt statue and dies in the end of the next combat or in the end of the turn, what happen first.
-Blood Gate (power): This power can only be used in a city with a Pact Pillar. When a unit uses it the unit dies and all the units in that unit stack are teleported to a random square in the Fire Hell. If this power is used in Hell the unit dies and all the other units in its stack are teleported to a random square inside the realm's cultural borders.

Unique units:
-Sacrificial Bride: Uses food to production. Has the Blood Gate power. They are treates as slaves and can be captured by military units of other realms, for example the Infernal realm.
-Warlock: Alternative tier 4 sorceror. It has Sorcery I and Summoning I.
-Hellbent Units: Humans with manipulated bloodlines who have powerfuk demon ancestors. They substitute the normal military units: melee, cavalry, archer and recon. Compared to their counterparts they have +1 power. Because of their specialized bloodline they cannot be upgraded to other units, a hellbent warrior will die a hellbent warrior. The can use the Betrayal of the Flesh power , when the adequate tech is researched. They use food to be produced and counts as Demons.

Unique buildings:
-Pact Pillar (Obelisk): Increase the count of Bounded Demons. Generates research and unhappiness.

Twists:
-Can spend bounded demons to build one of two structures in a city: Fountain of Blood, which gives Combat I promotion to all Hellbent units produced in the city, or a DMN Project, which increases the research in the city. Both generates one unhappiness.
- They start with Infernal language researched.
- All units can get the Bound Demon promotion.
-Animals can enter the Sheaim realm. Their instincts "remember" their crimes against the natural order.

General Twists:
-Armaggedon spells do not damage Hell.

Questions:
- The "Design: Hell" thread was closed?
- It is possible to a power/spell costs gold to be used?
- Which of the current realms already existed in the Age of Magic?
 
bebematos said:
Questions:
- The "Design: Hell" thread was closed?

It was moved to the private team forum for us to work on. Sometimes to many voices, no matter how good all of the ideas are, slows down the process.

- It is possible to a power/spell costs gold to be used?

Yes, the Train Maceman ability costs gold to use.

- Which of the current realms already existed in the Age of Magic?

If im understanding what you mean by realms Creation (ie: the world) existed and hell existed but it was all darkness. It wasn't until the end of the Age of Magic that Bhall was cast into hell and brought the fires in.


The Sheaim are a strange mix, they are defensive/arcane. Meaning they try to stay in their borders and build cities like the elohim. But instead of building culture they build armageddon spells.

As part of the their defensive arcane structure they get the summoner promotion (allowing them to send their summoned units farther afield) and what may be the best defensive unit in the game, the Eater of Dreams.

I may steal some of your ideas for the infernals.

Do me a favor, can you try out the Khazad and see what you come up with?
 
I'll try to write some Khazad ideas.

Which of the current civilizations already existed in the beggining of the Ice Age? From the description the Illian, Kuriotates and Doviello civilizations were born during the Ice Age or soon after it's end. There could be differences between the new civs from the ancient ones. Maybe the number of starting techs? The ancient civs starts with one more starting tech and the newer ones with more experienced units or simply more units.

Why Bhall fell to Hell? Who killed Sucellus?
 
The elves and dwarves existed at the begginning of the age of ice. I was thinking of them being able to convert to their race religions at the start of the game without having to research any new techs.
 
loki1232 said:
The elves and dwarves existed at the begginning of the age of ice. I was thinking of them being able to convert to their race religions at the start of the game without having to research any new techs.

What about lesser generic religions that Races could start with? It doesn't seem right to *Bang* have the Runes or Fellowship. Maybe a generic (insert name) religion that Dwarves follow until one of them (or another civ) founds the Runes. Then they could convert to this new religion or not.

If that's what you were talking about...
 
woodelf said:
What about lesser generic religions that Races could start with? It doesn't seem right to *Bang* have the Runes or Fellowship. Maybe a generic (insert name) religion that Dwarves follow until one of them (or another civ) founds the Runes. Then they could convert to this new religion or not.

If that's what you were talking about...

Hi Woodelf,

I hope you are fine, my sister had "threw" me her son (5 y.o) and her daughter (3 y.o) for some hollydays with their uncle... I'm absolutly exhausted;) ....No time to play, neither to try to write something about Lizardmen,....just enough to read what's new :(

It's a good idea to add a generic religion. Everyboby could start with, and convert to a new one. OMI i think that this religion should have no Great Temple (don't the name in english. But you understand what i mean, the Great Temple that give strong bonus of money,...) or this Great Temple should be under a Barbarian city rule. This last choice could be fun and could allow a kind of crusade to recover it.:) Why not a barb civ of Lizardmen to protect this Great Temple ? ;)

The Frog.
 
Well Uncle Frog I'm hoping that the Lizzies are going to be in the game in some form. Sadly they aren't a priority at the moment, but I'll continue championing their cause. :)
 
Woodelf, Kael, all guys from the Team,

As i told you few days ago, my favourite civ is the Amurites. There is only a very short text about them. Who are they ? I really like the "Archer-Mage". I know that you've got many things to do but can you tell us more about them?
What is(are) their(s) goal(s) ? Theirs strenghts and weaknesses ? What god they are preying ?

About Lizardmen, i fell disappointed. UU are very beautiful to watch.

My last question is more "technical". How many barb civ could support the game ? Only one (the "black" civ we usually see) or as many as we want ?

Now, PLAYING !!! They are (finally) asleep....;)

The Frog.
 
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