Design: Civilizations

[Kael]

Added Desc's for all of the civilizations.

 

[wilboman]

Okay, some bannor UU's:
Enforcers: Warrior replacements that reduce maintenance in cities they are stationed in. +50% versus barbarians.
Cavalry of Law: Horseman replacement with the same abilities as enforcer. +1 movement on roads.

Malakim:
Desert Nomad:
+100% on desert. Chariot replacement. Double movement on desert.
Glowing Golem:
Golem type with bonuses against undead, demons, and shades. Requires sun altar but no metals.

I love the Bannor units, but I have a bit of trouble with the Malakim in general. Connecting a civ too deeply to desert makes them underpowered if they start somewhere more lush, and overpowered if you select arid maps, IMO...

 

[Kael]

How many UU's are you expecting for each civ? I'm hoping for armies of them, but probably you'd just want one of two.

Also, how many unique buildings?

Depends on the Civ. The elves and dwarves will have tons of UU's some will probably have just 2-3. Buildings will only be as needed, so most may not have any unique buildings and others will have a few.

 

[Kael]

I love the Bannor units, but I have a bit of trouble with the Malakim in general. Connecting a civ too deeply to desert makes them underpowered if they start somewhere more lush, and overpowered if you select arid maps, IMO...

Yeah, the desert benifit needs to be minor. Probably just +1 food from deserts and some minor benifits for some UU's on desert but nothing major. If its a major benifit then we need to cost for it and if the civ doesnt start in the desert then it has to pay the cost for no benifit.

 

[Lunargent]

I put a bunch of them, including Loki's in the Units thread. I felt that the units go much better there.

I'll try to come up with more tomorrow, but not being in Europe, I'm up ridiculously late. 2-3 per civ should be pretty easy to come up with.

 

[Kael]

I agree that actual unit discussion goes better in the unit thread. we will probably use the civ lists here just for organization.

I chopped all the leader art down to 512x512 (the actual size they will use).

 

[Kael]

I went through the leaderhead settings today and came up with the following variables.

Alignment
[tab]Good- +4 for Good, -8 for evil
[tab]Neutral- -2 for Good, -2 for Evil
[tab]Evil- -4 for Good

Enemies (multi-valued)
[tab]-8 if a civilization is listed as an enemy

MEMORY_USE_DEATH
[tab]Amount settable per leader (some leaders have a high reaction to this, others dont care)
[tab]kicks if the civ has death mana
[tab]text: "You use Necromancy"

MEMORY_USE_ENTROPY
[tab]Amount settable per leader
[tab]kicks if the civ has entropy mana
[tab]text: "You summon demons"

MEMORY_HIGH_COMPASSION
[tab]Amount settable per leader
[tab]kicks if you have the top 2 compassion options
[tab]text: "You care for your people"

MEMORY_LOW_COMPASSION
[tab]Amount settable per leader (the Calabim give a negative for high compassion and a bonus for low compassion)
[tab]kicks if you have the bottom 2 compassion options
[tab]tab: "You don't care for your people"

I also added entries to allow each leader to prefer different improvement types for the mana node improvements. We can use it to set preferences on different mana types for different civs. With it Varn will be more likely to improve mana nodes to Spirit and Fire nodes, and the Calabim will be more likely to upgrade them to Entropy and Chaos nodes.

None of this stuff does anything yet, I just changed the schema to allow these new types (ie: more work to do).

What do you guys think, is this good? Should we add more attitude variables?

 

[Lunargent]

I think these are all good, and I propose a few more.

You use sun magic! And You use spirit magic! For the vampires, as I can see them hating anyone who would spread magic that they are weak against.

Your laws are stifling your people. Chaotic civs to Lawfull civs.

Your citizens are unruly and can't be trusted. Lawfull civ to Chaotic civ.

 

[Kael]

I think these are all good, and I propose a few more.

You use sun magic! And You use spirit magic! For the vampires, as I can see them hating anyone who would spread magic that they are weak against.

Your laws are stifling your people. Chaotic civs to Lawfull civs.

Your citizens are unruly and can't be trusted. Lawfull civ to Chaotic civ.

I was thinking that the chaotic and lawful civs would be more known for thier other attitudes. Breaking treaties, declaring war and peace more often, etc etc.

I forgot I also want to make the religions variable, so the Order gives a larger penalty against the Veil then it does against the Runes.

 

[Kael]

I added the civilization spreadsheet to the 2nd post.

 

[loki1232]

Luichirp (or whatever the good dwarves are)
-They get a whole new class of unit. Construct.
Basically all of their units are of this type. Golems are of this type as well.
For example, they get maceman construct, which is the same as a maceman. However, it is construct type. Also, for each magic node type these dwarves control, this maceman gets a +5% strength bonus.

 

[Kael]

Luichirp (or whatever the good dwarves are)
-They get a whole new class of unit. Construct.
Basically all of their units are of this type. Golems are of this type as well.
For example, they get maceman construct, which is the same as a maceman. However, it is construct type. Also, for each magic node type these dwarves control, this maceman gets a +5% strength bonus.

I really like the idea for the boost for every owned mana node. Its hard to do +5% strength per mana (i would have to make a bunch of promotions for each percent).

But I wonder if we cant use this same idea in another way, to give the Amurite units +1 or +2 xp for every mana resource they control past the first?

 

[loki1232]

Yeah i like the extra xp for each magic node. Also, they'd have to be of different types to give the bonus.

 

[Kael]

Yeah i like the extra xp for each magic node. Also, they'd have to be of different types to give the bonus.

Good catch, your right about the different types.

 

[loki1232]

I think that the malakim should get +2 culture from each desert tile in a city's radius. They are encouraged to build near deserts even if they don't work them.

Or perhaps they should be allowed to build improvements on deserts?

 

[Lunargent]

I think the best way is to allow them to build improvements in desert tiles that are specific to them, and to allow them to work desert tiles.

That would go a long way towards encouraging the AI to build their cities in the desert as well, since the AI looks at resources when considering city building sites. It's not going to care about a culture bonus when selecting city sites.

 

[Lunargent]

Thinking further about it, I think the culture spreading faster is certain terrains for certain civilizations could be a good idea.

Malakim: culture spreads faster in desert tiles.
Elves: Culture spreads faster in forest tiles.
Dwarves: culture spreads faster in hill tiles.
Lanun: water tiles.
Hippus: grasslands.

This could be balanced by having each civ that has a favored terrain get a terrain type where their culture spreads a bit slower.

Both of these would have to be a modifier on how culture gets applied to each tile, instead of a city culture modifier so that you don't get negative culture cities, and the shape of the civ's borders get shaped by the terrain.

Normally, a city can only put out culture in a radius of 5 squares max from it, after that, even a legendary city puts out 0 culture.

What if, this radius was expanded for a favored terrain type, and contracted for a hated type?

You could let a Malakim city eventually pump culture 7 squares radius into desert terrain, and only 4 into other types. Then the civilization's boundaries would tend to follow the boundaries of their favored terrain.

You would have to distinguish already existing forests from created forests for the elves to keep them from easily culture bombing the whole world.

 

[loki1232]

Thinking further about it, I think the culture spreading faster is certain terrains for certain civilizations could be a good idea.

Malakim: culture spreads faster in desert tiles.
Elves: Culture spreads faster in forest tiles.
Dwarves: culture spreads faster in hill tiles.
Lanun: water tiles.
Hippus: grasslands.

This could be balanced by having each civ that has a favored terrain get a terrain type where their culture spreads a bit slower.

Both of these would have to be a modifier on how culture gets applied to each tile, instead of a city culture modifier so that you don't get negative culture cities, and the shape of the civ's borders get shaped by the terrain.

Normally, a city can only put out culture in a radius of 5 squares max from it, after that, even a legendary city puts out 0 culture.

What if, this radius was expanded for a favored terrain type, and contracted for a hated type?

You could let a Malakim city eventually pump culture 7 squares radius into desert terrain, and only 4 into other types. Then the civilization's boundaries would tend to follow the boundaries of their favored terrain.

You would have to distinguish already existing forests from created forests for the elves to keep them from easily culture bombing the whole world.

I like this idea. especially for the malakim, because their whole idea is to spread the eye of god around.

 

[Kael]

We a need some drool factor for each of the civs. Something that will make players HAVE to try out each one. Let me see if I can lay out the ones I already think we have, and where we have some design gaps.

Drool factor could be an awesome unit, it could be an awesome mechanic. Our ideas to create all the UU's, civ specific buildings, and especially the palaces that grant a different mana type for each civ will make them all play differently. So differentiation isn't a problem, but we need a killer app for some fo the civs.

Already have:

[tab]Calabim- Vampires!
[tab]Amurites- Their strong casters will make them popular.
[tab]Clan of Embers- Being friendly with the barbarians will make them an interesting play.
[tab]Grigori- Agnostic style proves that playing without a religion is possible. Need some bonus's and such around this but I think we have the style we need.
[tab]Hippus- Our mercenaries.
[tab]Lanun- Pirates and naval superiority should set the style for this civ.
[tab]Ljosalfar- Elves and increased forest options should give us plenty of stuff for this civ.
[tab]Sheaim- these guys are to summoning what the amurites are to sorcery. That should give us plenty of options.


Need drool factor:

[tab]Balseraphs- I know this is going to be carnival theme, I just cant find the mechanic to bring it all together.
[tab]Bannor- Strong defence and low maintenance is a good design mechanic but dull. We need something fun here.
[tab]Doviello- The beastmen need a mechanic to make them fun. Something about a decreased replicance on cities and ability to create units in the field.
[tab]Elohim- These guys should be built for defensive growth players. I just dont know what the mechanic is to help with this.
[tab]Khazad- So the dwarves are half the height of normal units, but what beyond that?
[tab]Kuriotates- ?
[tab]Luchuirp- ?
[tab]Malakim- we have some style, but we need some drool factor for these guys.

 

[loki1232]

Need drool factor:

1. Balseraphs- I know this is going to be carnival theme, I just cant find the mechanic to bring it all together.
What if they got uber carnivals.
a) can cage any race at all. yes, caged dragons
b) get extra bonuses from the pens with things like freak shows and colleseums.
c) Late in the game can "breed" caged animals and thus get the benefits everywhere. yes, breeding humans.

Bannor- Strong defence and low maintenance is a good design mechanic but dull. We need something fun here.
Righteous crusades perhaps? Automatic celebrations in every city as long as they are at war with a civ of another religion?

Doviello- The beastmen need a mechanic to make them fun. Something about a decreased replicance on cities and ability to create units in the field.
Maybe whenever they attack a city some of the population and units die? Also, what if whenever one of their demon type units wins a battle, it creates a beastman type unit like "demon spawn".

Elohim- These guys should be built for defensive growth players. I just dont know what the mechanic is to help with this.
Perhaps they can an automatic defense unit on each square of their city fat crosses. It's strength would be based on the size of the city, and its type a spirit. After one is killed it is rebuilt automatically the next time there are no enemies in that city's fat cross.

Khazad- So the dwarves are half the height of normal units, but what beyond that?
Maybe huge bonuses for workshops and mines? Tolkienesque dwarves that produce lots of metal and have cool tunnels? Like mines increase movement?

Kuriotates- ?
Can upgrade the terrain as production in their cities. Here's what i mean.
A kuriotate city has a desert square. To get rid of it they can build-recreate desert. The desert is removed and replaced with a random square. Deserts and mountains are never the replacements. The replacement starts with a forest on it and all improvments are destroyed. Any resource on the square remains.

Also, for a very high cost they can build new resources. For example, if they have a grassland in a city's fat cross that has no resource on it they can build any food resource in the city. When the resource is built all improvements on the square are destroyed, and the resource is placed on it. They can build food resources for grasslands, and plains, metal resources (not mithral) and gems for hills, and water resources for water squares. They can build inscence for deserts. iHowever, these resources give no production/food/gold benefits to their spaces, simply strategic benefits.

Luchuirp- ?
What if all of their units were created with the golem type, but got +1 xp for each different magic type they controlled? Once the unit got to level 4, it could buy the "I'm a real boy" promotion, giving it it's normal type and allowing it to level.

Malakim- we have some style, but we need some drool factor for these guys.
What if they get to spread whatever religion they have very far and wide? They would build missionaries twice as fast, and would get a gold bonus whenever they spread their religion. Also, they would get to see all cities of their religion as though they had the holy city. Finally, they could build acolytes and priests without temples and without resources.